Sparky wrote: lexlazootin wrote:
Chief Blur Buster wrote:The ideal debounce for a very mechanically reliable button could be done only on the button-release end, so you can avoid MOUSEDOWN latency -- since games often trigger actions on the press rather than the release. And that the mouse button is mechanically new enough that ultra-short debounce logic (<50ms) only on the releases, would be fully reliable for your gaming habit
I'm really not too sure if i understand.
So are you saying that RIGHT NOW mouse debounce is only applied to the mouse-down but not on the mouse-up? if that's the case wouldn't you have the same electrical bouncing interference ether way? It doesn't make any sense to me.
Couldn't you just keep checking until the click and then just ignore all input for 10ms remove all debounce and latency?
Actually, thnking further, I amend what I say to:The ideal debounce for a very mechanically reliable button could be done lagessly only on the first state change after a delay, so you can avoid debounce-related latency -- since games often trigger actions on the press rather than the release. And that the mouse button is mechanically new enough that ultra-short debounce logic (<50ms) only on the releases, would be fully
reliable for your gaming habit
The button signal sequence is really something like: PRESS
--> [button signal-flickers/bounces] --> [button signal '1' continuous] --> RELEASE
--> [button signal flickers/bounces] --> [button signal '0' continuous].
On a good fresh mechanical sensor, you'd certainly have no problems detecting the initial state change and acting upon that immediately, but thereafter ignoring state changes for a number of milliseconds. This would work perfectly fine for games whose actions only depended on precision of press/release events, as long as button erraticness was less than a user's most rapid repeat fire-button pressing (as it is often the case, for a fresh/new button). But as a button wears down, button erraticness starts to require longer debounce logic.
This is really a good case for user-customizable debounce logic, as many gamers use their mouse harder than others. Even limited, such as a selection of 3 values, or a fully user-customizable value.
- Code: Select all
Select Time for De-Bounce Logic:
[ ] OFF: Not Recommended
[X] eSports Ultrashort/New Mouse: 5ms
[ ] Enthusaist Gamer: 25ms
[ ] Old Mouse: 100ms
In this case, any state change (a press or a release event) shorter than the specific threshold, will be lagless and non-delayed
An advanced (eSports league) user diagnostic utility would be included, to analyze whether the mouse has bounce issues or not. Mice would be tested before they leave the factory. This eSports-league mouse could have somewhat of price premium in exchange for a stronger debounce warranty (return mouse if 5ms debounce fails to be reliable within a time period, such as 90 days or 365 days). Logitech, Razer, etc, could be all over this.
The problem is most mice manufacturers use cookie-cutter debounce logic to cover "lowest common denominator", sometimes handicapping a fresh mouse (adding latency to button presses) in exchange for having no problems with older/worn mice. I think debounce logic is probably already customizable in some undocumented ways (registry, etc) on some mice, but officializing this with easy mouse utilities would be a good idea.
The truth is there really doesn't need to be debounce-related lag at all
(not even +1ms) for brand new mice, as for a new microswitch, bounce is far faster than the best human rapid-fire pressing. That can easily be filtered-out laglessly. It only becomes a problem with older mice.
On a very old mouse, it can be: PRESS
--> [button signal-flickers/bounces a LOT] --> [button signal '1' mostly continuous but slightly erratic] --> RELEASE
--> [button signal flickers/bounces a LOT] --> [button signal '0' mostly continuous but slightly erratic].
While filterable for Desktop use, this mouse is now [bleep] for competitive and eSports play, and you must get a new mouse, no sense in trying to continue to play with worn equipment. Now, in some mice, it still works fine because manufacturers often include a permanent button press/release delay to filter the slightly-erratic mostly-continuous signal. This permanent delay (sometimes tiny like 1ms) is junk, and not needed on brand new mice, but some mouse manufacturers seem to include it anyway so they have fewer warranty claims. Perhaps this could be a second debounce setting:
- Code: Select all
Select Time for STATE-CHANGE De-Bounce Logic:
[ ] OFF: Not Recommended
[X] 5ms: eSports Ultrashort/New Mouse
[ ] 25ms: Enthusaist Gamer
[ ] 100ms: Old Mouse
NOTE: All button state changes are lagless after the specified threshold.
Select Time for STATE-HOLD De-Bounce Logic:
[ ] OFF: eSports/New Mouse Lagless Mode
[X] 0.1ms: eSports/New Mouse Accidental Itchy Finger Filter
[ ] 1ms: Enthusaist Gamer
[ ] 10ms: Old Mouse
NOTE: This number adds a permanent button-release delay in exchange for trigger-finger reliability.
(If for specific high end mice, button presses give internal microcontroller analog value between 0 and 1, due to varying pressure or varying resistance values on a mouse button, then additional settings might be required for customizable button-pressure).
So, Logitech/Razer, if you are reading these forums, here's your cue for a premium eSports mouse with lagless debounce modes.