Help trying to transition from CRT

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Erecshyrinol
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Erecshyrinol » 09 Aug 2016, 07:14

Hey fellow sufferer.

I think the "in mud" feeling you describe is a cumulative effect of input lag, motion blur and the more noticeable tearing (in comparison to a CRT), because there's nothing else about LCDs which should contribute to this.

I find it strange you didn't notice much of a difference with motion blur reduction (I'll refer to this as strobing from here on). By this, do you mean that you didn't notice an improvement over this "in mud" experience or that you didn't notice any visual difference? Because the visual difference is massive and especially beneficial in fast, messy "visual salad" games like Overwatch. It's definitely less important in something visually simple like Quake or slower (or more accurately - less twitchy) like Counter Strike.

Falkentyne is not talking out of his ass. When I first saw strobing in action, it was the first time I could honestly say that LCDs are approaching CRT in terms of motion clarity. I say "approaching" because there is still crosstalk and pale overshoot artifacts to deal with. Also, it's as if it makes tearing more apparent, which I found odd. I attributed the less apparent tearing on CRTs to the fact that they strobe, because I don't really know what else it could be. There's no magic sauce. Yet strobing a LCD actually exacerbates the visibility of tearing.

Depending on settings, strobing can add some additional input lag, but Falkentyne has explained to you how to do away with that. After setting up your strobe properly, the only input lag that remains is the lag between frames, but this is something you experience on a CRT as well.

Well, technically, with LCDs, there is still the innate processing input lag which is something strobing can't do away with. With the monitors you've tried (assuming you turned on "instant mode" on your BenQs, which I think is on by default anyway), this is no longer than 3~4ms so it's very doubtful that you can feel it in any way. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's completely impossible that this can theoretically impact your performance, but it shouldn't be actively noticeable. It shouldn't actively feel like mud.

So here's a theory. Since you are coming directly from a CRT, I think it's likely that you are focusing on LCD artifacts. Without strobing, this will be motion blur, which does lend heavily to a "muddy" experience. With strobing, there are overshoot artifacts. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, overshoot artifacts are these pale silhouettes in the photos Falkentyne posted, also known as "inverse ghosting". In motion, they are ghost-like afterimages following moving objects. Don't misunderstand - they are still there if you do not strobe, but less noticeable. They become a lot more apparent when you do strobe because there's no motion blur to soften their appearance. This is why Falkentyne stresses the importance of the AMA Low setting, which reduces overshoot to a minimum, but only on the XL2720. The problem is, when you actively notice overshoot, it can contribute to an almost psychedelic impression. Instead of focusing on the target, your eyes may wander off slightly to the afterimage. It can be just a tiny flick of the eye here and there. You may not be aware that you are doing it, but it is unnatural and it does confuse the eyes.

When I stopped focusing on the novelty of the CRT vibe, my own impression of strobing was somewhat dreamlike. In a bad way. Overshoot ghosting, tearing and crosstalk all contributed to something quite messy, especially in Overwatch. It is a sad state of affairs that I still found the experience a big improvement on regular, blurry LCD operation. So here's my question to you - why do you even want to transition to a LCD anyway? If you have a 16:10 CRT like the coveted FW900, treasure that and stay far from LCDs as long as possible. In fact, get a cheap 60hz VA for desktop/movie use and only use your CRT in-game so as to prolong it's life.

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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Aug 2016, 02:04

Just to be clear....as it wasn't mentioned in this thread.

Most people assume you are, but... Are you also using a gaming mouse, preferably one that runs well at 1000Hz? And ideally plugged directly into the computer, rather than via hubs, etc? All of this becomes more important whenever choosing to game in either GSYNC mode or strobed mode.

Is input lag or zero motion blur more important? If motion fluidity is your numero uno priority (even at cost of a bit of lag), best moment of motion blur elimination occurs with framerate matching refresh rate matching strobe rate -- and when combined with either keyboard or high-Hz mouse.
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Q83Ia7ta
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 10 Aug 2016, 12:31

Chief Blur Buster wrote:best moment of motion blur elimination occurs with framerate matching refresh rate matching strobe rate -- and when combined with either keyboard or high-Hz mouse.
Isn't input lag (input delay) depends on fps on most game engines?
Or higher frame rate gives you faster picture output and that matters?
For Quake Live for example changing max fps limit from old 125fps to current 250fps is noticeable for me.

Falkentyne
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Falkentyne » 10 Aug 2016, 13:57

Input lag can occur in the game engine, video card/drivers or scalar of the monitor.
Street Fighter 5, for instance, has 8 frames of delay, even on Playstation 4!

Benq Blur reduction has +1 frame of added input lag when set at the end of the strobe phase "=000" and current frame (no added input lag, besides normal vsync or basic processing) at strobe phase=100.
(with a Vertical Total Tweak in use, 100 is reduced to the backlight shutoff point, depending on the refresh rate, e.g. Strobe Phase <050 at 120hz, <060 at 100hz). This is independent of vsync or game engine.

Lightboost, has at least +1 frame of extra input lag, as from my tests, it seems equivalent at LB=10%, to Benq Blur Reduction+ Strobe Duty 009+Strobe Phase 000+Vertical Total 1497-VT 1502 internally.

Vsync enabled has a base input lag of the frame time (1000 divided by refresh rate) milliseconds.

Then you have stuff like video card drivers adding input lag, absurd stuff like 125ms of added input lag at 60hz/60 fps with vsync on, back in the old days, with PreRenderLimit / FlipQueueSize="3" under DirectX 9 and older), and so on...

Q83Ia7ta
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 10 Aug 2016, 14:36

Falkentyne wrote:Input lag can occur in the game engine, video card/drivers or scalar of the monitor
Thanks for information. I tried LightBoost/BBR for my gaming and can't handle it's low refresh rate / input lag / crosstalk.
I did some input lags tests on PG278Q, XL2430T, XL2430T, XL2430T (BBR 144Hz), ZIS board @220Hz. Maximum delay I got was 13,33ms with BBR@144Hz. I'm gonna publish it when I have mood & time to test PG248Q.

Erecshyrinol
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Erecshyrinol » 11 Aug 2016, 09:19

Q83Ia7ta wrote:
Falkentyne wrote:Input lag can occur in the game engine, video card/drivers or scalar of the monitor
Thanks for information. I tried LightBoost/BBR for my gaming and can't handle it's low refresh rate / input lag / crosstalk.
I did some input lags tests on PG278Q, XL2430T, XL2430T, XL2430T (BBR 144Hz), ZIS board @220Hz. Maximum delay I got was 13,33ms with BBR@144Hz. I'm gonna publish it when I have mood & time to test PG248Q.
So with BBR, even under best possible settings in terms of input lag, you found input lag noticeable?

spacediver
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by spacediver » 11 Aug 2016, 09:42

Erecshyrinol wrote:
If you have a 16:10 CRT like the coveted FW900, treasure that and stay far from LCDs as long as possible.
That is precisely my plan :)

Q83Ia7ta
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 11 Aug 2016, 12:19

Erecshyrinol wrote:So with BBR, even under best possible settings in terms of input lag, you found input lag noticeable?
+2ms avg. at 144Hz at default BBR settings on XL2430T.

3dfan
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by 3dfan » 15 Aug 2016, 08:15

spacediver wrote:
Erecshyrinol wrote:
If you have a 16:10 CRT like the coveted FW900, treasure that and stay far from LCDs as long as possible.
That is precisely my plan :)
and mine too as long as posible...however it worries me that people in hard forum seem to be struggling finding a decent DAC adapter to keep this monitor properly with current video cards (aside of the The analogix adapter which seems to be just a prototype and who knows if it will be released some time and with a decent price of course).

so it makes me consider the xl2720z as a posible future adquisition.

some questions i have about the xl2720z:

what is the size of the height and width of this monitor of the viewable area (ive been looking for this at the benq and other sites but it seems that the size described is from the edge of the bezels and the base, not just the visible area)

how is this monitor color quality? i have read that this is the recomended monitor for those crt lovers like me, but is it posible to match or get close enought color quality with this monitor, in combination with decent input lag, low motion blur and brightness and contrast, to the quality of a crt such the fw900?

Falkentyne
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Re: Help trying to transition from CRT

Post by Falkentyne » 15 Aug 2016, 11:32

Color quality is crap just like what you would expect from a LCD, but it's acceptable if you're gaming.

If you absolutely WANT the best image quality instead of just blur reduction, the only choice you may have is spending $1300 on an Eizo Foris FS2735. This panel has the exact same issues the XB271HU panel has, as far as if you get a good sample ("Silver" backlight bleed, which is normal IPS glow, vs YELLOW backlight bleed, which is BAD and ABNORMAL and RMA type of glow!), but much better image quality settings than the Acer XB271HU.

In order to get *GOOD* CRT quality color, you need a true 10 bit panel (and of course a videocard that can output this digitally), not 8 bit +Hi FRC, but true 10 bit, and I don't know any gaming monitors with those specifications. 8 bit+hi FRC (true 8 bit but FRC for simulated 10 bit) is good enough for most uses but still not CRT like if you are into image reproduction. In the real world, for "Decent" color, you want a true 8 bit (not 6 bit+hi FRC) screen, but as far as I know, none of the 1080p non professional screens are true 8 bit. You can check TFTcentral's part panel database or the weird website with monitor panel datasheets, but that won't help with what you need right now. Stuff like the XL2730Z (AUO TN 1440p), XB271HU (IPS), PG279Q (TN? Not sure if TN or IPS), are all true 8 bit panels.

The only reason I recommend the XL2720Z is if you care more about motion blur reduction and CRT motion CLARITY, as all of the newer monitors have different issues with blur reduction; XL2730Z has bugged firmware making 100hz blur reduction strobe at 8.3ms timings (120hz pulse timings at 100hz) causing an instant out of sync, VT tweaks (which "work" up to VT 1849) do NOT affect strobe crosstalk anymore, as the Scalar which responded to VT tweaks (Mstar) was changed to Realtek (which does not), so crosstalk percentage covering the screen on the XL2730Z is similar to the XL2720Z without VT tweaks.

(if you want to see an estimation of how much crosstalk you would get on an XL2730Z, even though this would be at 100hz instead of 120hz, you can create a custom resolution on the XL2411Z, XL2420Z, XL2720Z and XL2430T of: 2560x1440, porch 48/3, sync width 32/5, HT 2720, VT 1500 (Yes this will work), refresh rate 100hz. MAXIMUM Strobe phase will be 059, just like with the usual VT 1500 tweak at 100hz).

The ULMB gsync monitors are DARKER when strobing than the Benq monitors as backlight voltage is not increased by 1.8x to compensate for strobing loss of cd/m2. The backlight voltage increase was taken from the Lightboost hardware, adapted for Benq blur reduction and still occurs in the XL2730Z.

In depth strobing tests (besides the ones done on TFTcentral) has not been done on the Eizo Foris FS2735 IPS screen. It apparently can not single strobe at 60hz, nor can it strobe at bizarre custom refresh rates like 91hz, 80hz, 85hz (unless someone wants to test it?). It can strobe correctly at 100hz. There are no direct crosstalk motion tests that have been done.....and for $1300...would YOU want to be the guinea pig to test crosstalk? Pulse width and "Area" (Phase) don't seem to be changeable.

The only other screen that I have seen that can strobe at all refresh rates was that $10,000 "Medical" monitor that I posted about like a year ago, that was mentioned over on hardocp forums.

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