Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Motion blur eliminating strobe backlights found in gaming monitors. This includes NVIDIA LightBoost, Ultra Low Motion Blur (ULMB), EIZO Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight utility, etc.

Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Falkentyne » 02 Nov 2016, 20:45

Trying to see if there is more interest in low refresh rate strobe support.
As many people already realize, strobing low refresh rates like 60hz, by double strobing, looks probably worse than having no blur reduction at all, because instead of having motion blur, you have a double image. Motion blur can be accepted by the brain, but a double image simply cannot.

The only monitors capable of "single strobing" low refresh rates are typical CRT panels, which are only limited by their max KHz values in their compatible refresh rates, and the *ORIGINAL* Benq Z series monitors via enabling the "Single Strobe" option on the XL2411Z, XL2420Z, XL2720Z and XL2430T. These are the ONLY monitors that can single strobe low refresh rates per frame without any strange hardware/software bugs to enable it.

This option is VERY nice to have on game consoles, as 60 FPS/60hz is VERY blurry with sample and hold motion blur with 16.7ms of screen persistence. With single strobe blur reduction, you can get a MUCH smoother more natural image, but at the cost of pretty intense flickering, just like a 60hz CRT monitor and maybe even more noticeable. Some people don't mind this flicker if the option is available, but some are very sensitive to it. But I want to know if people WANT this option to be available by choice if they want to enable a low refresh rate blur reduction (as no one likes double strobing as far as I know).

The Benq XL2730Z is very buggy, not only does Vertical Total changes not reduce strobe crosstalk at all even though you are extending the blanking interval, but any refresh rate lower than 120hz strobes at 8.3ms (120hz) timings, causing sync stuttering and an unusable display. And 60hz will double strobe (8.3ms timings).

The Benq XL2735 seems to fix the bugs in the XL2730Z, but at the cost of not having freesync. This may be a hardware limitation, but the XL2735 seems to function more like the old XL2720Z, but in 1440p format; VT tweaks work again, up to VT 1825, Strobe crosstalk is reduced considerably at 100hz and 120hz with it applied, but one thing is missing:

No Single Strobe override switch.
This means no blur reduction in 60hz locked games like Dark Souls, or with HDMI/console output at 60hz, unless you want that nasty double strobe again.

I believe having an option for Single Strobe should be implemented in a firmware update by Benq.
What do you guys think?

Remember---"if you don't want to use it, you don't have to" but what is the drawback of at least having the CHOICE of using it, like the XL2420Z/XL2720Z already give you?
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby 3dfan » 03 Nov 2016, 07:54

of course i would love to have more choices for current monitors to be able to use 60hz like a crt, personaly i dont have issues with it, use it for many things i do on my fw900 crt (desktop usage. emulators, 60fps limited games or heavy games my system cannot handle beyond 60fps) and when i enjoy playing some games at higher fps than 60 as long as my system can handle that load (specialy for how smoother the mouse feels) i also enjoy 60hz.

i am aware crt monitors are no longer supported as analog devices on current graphic cards and my fw900 now does some extrange high pitch noice while its warming up that could mean a near death due to its age, so there will not be other options rather to be forced to adquire a new monitor.

i have read some of your post and your anwers to my questions in other topics and this worries me the now "old" Zseries benq seems to be the only ones to be able to handle 60hz like a crt and some day those would be discontinued, with no more choices to use those with ugly 60 hz strobing that you call double strobing.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 03 Nov 2016, 15:17

I definitely like the single strobe option at lower refresh rates (60Hz). Yes, it flickers like a mofo, but it works great in certain stuff like emulators and other 60Hz stuff.

People who purchase strobed blur-reduction monitors (LightBoost/etc) are often a savvy lot, that want some of the extra adjustment tweaks, and peoples' purchase decisions depend on this.

Increasing the strobe length (e.g. To around 4ms) and decreasing average brightness, helps reduce flicker a lot -- and lengthening the blanking intervals greatly help the strobe crosstalk problem (large blanking intervals cause the panel to be scanned faster per refresh cycle, for a longer pause between refresh cycles -- letting pixel transitions settle down before being strobed, to reduce/eliminate double-image effects of motion on backlight-strobed blur reduction monitors).

If manufacturers are concerned about flicker, then bury it in a service menu, or Advanced User menu (with a flicker warning message, even).

Everyone, I encourage you to reply to this thread. I'll be happy to send a link to this thread to monitor manufacturers.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Q83Ia7ta » 03 Nov 2016, 20:02

It's always good to have a freedom to change the things.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Haste » 13 Nov 2016, 15:17

I would also like to have access to longer strobe duty (even higher than 4ms if possible)

I'm one of the unfortunate "very sensible to flicker" peeps. And I don't use ULMB even at 120Hz 100% strobe duty because I find it straining.
if longer strobe duty were available, I think there is a good chance that I could find a setting that I find acceptable. Basically exchanging a bit of motion clarity for a bit less flickering.

Also if monitor manufacturers manage to raise the frequency at which strobbing can work, that would help a lot too! Especially now that there are 240hz monitors coming soon.

Just my 2cents.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 19 Feb 2017, 21:14

One possible compromise is:

Shaders/Drivers with software-based Black Frame Insertion

If someone has the programmer skillz to do this -- Basically a shader/driver that runs in the backgrounds and automatically adds single-strobe support via software-based black frame insertion (blacking-out every other 120Hz refresh cycle), either as a driver or a shader or a video filter. I think this could provide a universal solution, even at a brightness tradeoff...
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Glide » 20 Feb 2017, 06:22

If you grew up in a PAL region, 60Hz flicker is nothing.
PAL CRTs flickered at 50Hz, not 60Hz.

I have absolutely no issue with low refresh rate single strobing.
I can't stand to watch a display which strobes at a rate higher than the framerate though.

Double or triple-strobing gives me a migraine.
PWM-driven displays (plasma) or PWM-driven LEDs (backlights, keyboard/mice LEDs, interior lighting etc.) are even worse.
I get bad migraines after a very short period of exposure.

I can handle single-strobe on a CRT at 24Hz even, but start strobing at anything higher than the source frame rate and I can't watch it.
I'll take sample-and-hold motion blur over a double-strobed image or higher rates.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:One possible compromise is: Shaders/Drivers with software-based Black Frame Insertion
If someone has the programmer skillz to do this -- Basically a shader/driver that runs in the backgrounds and automatically adds single-strobe support via software-based black frame insertion (blacking-out every other 120Hz refresh cycle), either as a driver or a shader or a video filter. I think this could provide a universal solution, even at a brightness tradeoff...

Black frame insertion doesn't really work well on LCDs though due to the slow response time.
That's why you really need the display to switch the LED backlight on/off instead.

Works great on CRTs and should work well on OLEDs though.
The other problem with software-based BFI is that you have to be able to run the display at double the refresh rate of your content.
Current OLEDs are only 60Hz. They might be 120Hz next year, but that still means you're limited to 60 FPS with BFI.

I'd really like it if ASUS' new HDR display with 384 LED zones had a backlight scanning option that worked at any rate.
The display is stupidly expensive, but I might actually consider it if they synced the backlight scan to the refresh, and supported refresh rates down to say 48Hz with it. (I wouldn't expect any lower)

ULMB being limited to 85/100/120/144Hz makes it a completely worthless option to me.
Ideally G-Sync with single-strobe BFI would become a thing.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 20 Feb 2017, 17:12

Glide wrote:Black frame insertion doesn't really work well on LCDs though due to the slow response time.
That's why you really need the display to switch the LED backlight on/off instead.

Actually BFI can be combined with the backlight too!

1. Get a LightBoost or ULMB display (or 120Hz Blur Reduction)
2. Look at http://www.testufo.com/blackframes

Perfect-looking CRT clarity ghosting-free 60Hz single strobe by using software-based BFI to convert 120Hz strobe to 60Hz strobe, see for yourself...

Basically software based BFI successfully converts 120Hz hardware strobing into 60Hz hardware strobing. (Or 40Hz or 30Hz or 24Hz, any even divisor...)

Software BFI is already built into WinUAE Amiga Emulator, and it works wonderfully when combined with 120Hz strobing. Most monitor manufacturers refuse to add 60Hz strobing because it flickers too much, but some of us want single-strobe. (Please post here too if you want 60Hz single strobe too)

Today, LCDs are fast enough to strobe successfully, LCD response speed (at least on TN gaming LCDs) is a NONISSUE, surf the menus at http://www.blurbusters.com and also look at the high-speed video at http://www.blurbusters.com/lightboost/video ... Our namesake, "BLUR BUSTERS" which is what we are all about -- eliminating motion blur on LCDs. :)

What we need a universal driver that works with all desktop content...YouTube 60fps...VIMEO 60fps...Games stuck at 60fps...All emulators...Etc...Not built into specific applications like WinUAE!
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 26 Feb 2017, 14:56

Agreed, it is best if the manufacturer includes 60Hz single-strobe.

That said, LightBoost/ULMB 60Hz is achievable via the BFI technique as a workaround. We shouldn't have to do it, but it would also help manufacturers realize there is a demand for single-strobe 60Hz.
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Re: Low refresh rate Single Strobing (60hz+) interest

Postby Falkentyne » 26 Feb 2017, 15:28

Can someone please direct a Benq engineer to this thread?

Maybe they can release a firmware update for the XL2735 and XL2540 that has single strobe forcibly enabled (there's no reason to have it off anyway) for 50-85hz, and upload the raw firmware BIN file on their support site as unsupported.

We already know the RT809F flasher is capable of making BACKUPS of the firmware via HDMI, but I don't know if anyone has tried flashing a backup yet. And I don't own either monitor. If Benq releases an XL2735 firmware I'll gladly pay list price for that monitor.
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