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looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby Haste » 30 Aug 2017, 21:15

Input lag difference with G-SYNC correctly set up would be imperceptible:

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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby sharknice » 30 Aug 2017, 23:25

I prefer GSYNC over vsync off for competitive gaming. You don't really get any added input lag from gsync compared to vsync off. Gsync eliminates tearing and stutters which actually make a significant difference. You can identify and track enemies easier because you see them as whole instead of potentially torn in half. You don't get inconsistencies from stuttering so your tracking is more consistent and you can aim better.

The only thing I would even consider over gsync is a blur reduction like ULMB that comes with GSYNC displays. Because with the reduced motion blur it's easier to identify enemies, but then you lose out on the advantages of gsync.

Some day we'll be able to use both.
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 31 Aug 2017, 10:45

Additional information for reader, to help make an educated decision:

Haste wrote:Input lag difference with G-SYNC correctly set up would be imperceptible:

sharknice wrote:I prefer GSYNC over vsync off for competitive gaming.

This is a good point:
When we are in the 240Hz+ stratosphere, it is definitely worth considering G-SYNC or strobing in eSports nowadays.

Compare 60Hz input lag versus 240Hz input lag. Notice how the 240Hz erases most of G-SYNC lag disadvantages?

Image

So, yes, 240Hz G-SYNC is now used more often in competitive/eSports gaming since it practically erases the VSYNC OFF versus G-SYNC differentials. The great thing is you *do* have the choice between VSYNC OFF versus G-SYNC (or FreeSync) depending on game and preference.

The majority of competitive gamers are not running at >1000fps VSYNC OFF. When we did the G-SYNC tests at 60Hz, the differential between GSYNC and VSYNC OFF is much bigger, but at 240Hz, they fall into almost imperceptible territory, except for cross-the-finish-line-first events (turn corner, react at same time, shoot at same time) where even a single millisecond can matter. Only in the eSports leagues where big money is involved, that it really can still remain a consideration.

If you're playing in Quake Live or smaller CS:GO teams (And have a nice overclocked rig) where 1000fps+ is very reliable, the lag differential is tighter (notice, only 3ms for min/max/avg for the extreme situations). Tighter lag differentials can help aiming better, but this is often not felt when differentials are this small (due to 240Hz). Remove the motion blur, and you can react a bit faster -- and that sometimes outweighs the strobe lag for "specific gameplay tactics".

Articles worth reading:
-- Advantages Of Framerates Above Refresh Rate
-- Input Lag and the Limits of Human Reaction Time

So the most flexible buying choices today really are:
- Obtain a 240Hz GSYNC monitor for the choice of VSYNC OFF gaming, G-SYNC gaming, and ULMB gaming;
- Obtain a 240Hz Zowie monitor for the choice of VSYNC OFF gaming, FreeSync gaming, and DyAc/MBR gaming;

Strobing (on models that do it *brightly*) can actually improve competitive advantages in certain games. It doesn't help "religiously-stare-at-crosshairs" gaming like most eSports players do CS:GO but it can help "track-moving-objects" gaming (e.g. Rocket League). Your improved reaction time without motion blur can sometimes outweigh the very slight input lag of ultra-high-Hz strobing (strobing lag is reduced to adding ~1-3ms at 144Hz-240Hz) in certain kinds of competitive games that force you to track your eyes on moving objects.

So you do get all three abilities (choice of VSYNC OFF versus VRR versus strobing) with either a 240Hz G-SYNC monitor or a 240Hz Zowie monitor (unadvertised, but they support FreeSync if you force-turn-off DyAc). Monitors that support optional strobed modes & VRR modes of operations give you a flexible choice of VSYNC OFF vs VRR vs Strobed in order to cover all your bases. And you still can use VSYNC OFF if you need an extra few milliseconds for eSports league gaming. To gain maximum choice, 240Hz monitors with optional strobing & VRR include the following:

* BenQ/Zowie XL2540 - 240Hz / FreeSync / MBR
* BenQ/Zowie XL2546 - 240Hz / FreeSync / DyAc
* Acer XB252Q - 240Hz / G-SYNC / ULMB
* Acer XB272Q - 240Hz / G-SYNC / ULMB
* ASUS ROG PG258Q - 240Hz / G-SYNC / ULMB
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby hammelgammler » 31 Aug 2017, 19:00

Regarding blur reduction, do you still "need" FPS=Hz at >240Hz? It could be pretty hard to sustain a solid 240 FPS, and games like PUBG have a limit of 144 FPS. I don't quite understand why it's better with blur reduction to have it matched that perfect. Without it, the more Hz the better with any FPS.

Also regarding G-Sync, I noticed a few things. I get like about 80-135 FPS early game and ~144 FPS (ingame cap) mid-late game, and with G-Sync it feels much less responsive then even 120Hz ULMB. In the graphs you showed the monitor pretty much always runs at ~144Hz, but when you can't sustain that much FPS and running at AVG 100Hz on a 144Hz monitor, shouldn't you have "much" more lag as it's pretty much like playing on a 100Hz fixed refresh monitor?

So I thought, when you get the most out of G-Sync when having more FPS then Hz all the time, then why not running ultra-low-lag-V-Sync (which works with blur reduction)? I mean sure, if you have drops like my PUBG example it looks and also feels much better then ultra-low-lag-V-Sync, but in both instances you want to have FPS > Hz all the time to get the best experience.

With the introduction of even higher refresh rates, possibly even 480Hz already, tearing and microstutters shouldn't be "that" noticeable anymore right? In games where you get 240-480 FPS (~360 AVG) you pretty much want to run at 480Hz regardless to get the most fluid experience or do I feel placebo? I tested it a few times, and fixed 120Hz (even with ULMB which adds lag) it feels much more responsive, especially in situations where it drops to <80 FPS/Hz. I always read that it should feel more fluid with G-Sync.

Edit: To be fair, for games like Factorio with a fixed FPS of 60 and where you don't care about input lag that much, G-Sync is great! The game looks so much more fluid it's insane, I literally don't want to play it without G-Sync. In games where you scroll with a constant speed every micro stutter is so visible it's not even fun anymore. For games like that it's truly great, don't get me wrong there. :)
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby open » 31 Aug 2017, 21:09

I seem to like ULMB when im moving the mouse a little more slowly. I can clearly see each image of the enemy letting me pick them out and their locations fast. Anytime I move the mouse quickly I like GSYNC smoothness so i can time when to hit the fire button exactly. ULMB is also just really nice when watching an animation. Having zero motion blur is a different experience. I wish I kept my old 21 inch viewsonic CRT working.
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 01 Sep 2017, 00:31

hammelgammler wrote:Regarding blur reduction, do you still "need" FPS=Hz at >240Hz? It could be pretty hard to sustain a solid 240 FPS, and games like PUBG have a limit of 144 FPS. I don't quite understand why it's better with blur reduction to have it matched that perfect. Without it, the more Hz the better with any FPS.

You don't need >240Hz for blur reduction.

Perfect stutter-free zero motion blur
The only thing that matters for perfect "double-image-free" and "jittery-free" blur reduction is the triple lock:
framerate == refreshrate == stroberate
for the very best ULMB look (smoothest, jitter-free, stutter-free, no-double-images)

Basically 75fps @ 75Hz strobed or 144fps @ 144Hz strobed or 240fps @ 240Hz strobed.
Frame rate can't keep up? Lower your refresh rate, for good-quality jitter-free strobing.

Strobe-amplified microstutters/jittering
Framerate-mismatch stutter/jittering is MUCH more amplified with strobed modes so stutter control becomes critical. Fix mouse stutters, and triple-lock. (Man, I wish variable large-range refresh rate strobing has arrived already -- e.g. 75Hz-240Hz VRR strobed range -- using VRR would fix the strobe-amplified microstuttering)

Multi-image effects
There are multi-image artifacts if you don't strobe/flicker at the same rate as frame rate
30fps@60Hz strobe = double images (common with consoles back in 60Hz CRT/plasma days)
60fps@120Hz strobe = double images
120fps@240Hz strobe = double images
40fps@120Hz strobe = triple images
etc.

So the double-images you used to get on CRT/Plasma 30fps@60Hz, manifests itself again if you run at frame rates lower than strobe rates -- like 60fps @ 120Hz LightBoost. The only way to avoid strobe double-images is to avoid frame rates well below strobe rate.

Additionally, another common complaint about strobing is amplified microstutter / jittering. The use of VSYNC OFF isn't very strobing-friendly. The only way to fix that is to either (A) lock the frame rate (VSYNC ON, precision RTSS frame cap, etc), or (B) simply use overkill frame rate (e.g. 500fps+ VSYNC OFF at 120Hz strobing).

If your game cannot run at 240fps, simply reduce your refresh rate to your framerate territory, e.g. 100Hz strobed still has far less motion blur than 240Hz non-strobed.

That's why many 100fps games look MUCH better at 100Hz ULMB than 120Hz ULMB. If your games fall short of 120Hz ULMB, reduce your ULMB refresh rate to make ULMB look much better, for the framerate == refreshrate == stroberate lock of the "Arcade butter smooth" or "Nintendo smooth pan" CRT effect.

Yes, lower Hz can increase lag, but if you're a motion-blur-hater & stutter-hater -- and if your priority of a specific videogame is "perfect stutter free CRT clarity", some of us wilingly sacrifice a few milliseconds to successfully lock the stroberate to framerate. Kaboom. Super-perfect superfluid zero-motion-blur motion whenever framerate, refreshrate, stroberate, are locked.

The good news is that Zowie/DyAc can support strobing in 1Hz increments from ~75Hz through 240Hz, so you have a pretty broad choice of good-quality strobing for any frame rate.

Good virtual reality headsets (Oculus, Vive) often rely on the triple lock (90fps @ 90Hz refresh @ 90Hz strobe), because it eliminates nausea -- stutters and motion blur can create headaches or nausea in virtual reality. However, this is also fully applicable to ULMB or strobing -- you need the triple lock if you want the "zeroblur+zerostutter" effect.

Overkill framerates can be an alternative
If locking the framerate is problematic (e.g. input lag of using VSYNC ON method of locking frame rate) there's also an alternative compromise. For strobing during competitive gameplay, one compromise is doing a rather severe overkill of framerate (e.g. 500fps+@120Hz) during VSYNC OFF strobing. This works for CS:GO and Quake Live where it's possible to run really high frame rates. But, this is not relevant to, say, playing a RTS game when scrolling a map clearer & smoother might be preferred over a few-milliseconds more lag.

TL:DR: Whether this post is important, depends on the goals of play. This post is usually useless/moot for most professional CS:GO and Quake players (games that runs well on 240Hz displays). Many eSports players stare at the center crosshairs 90%+ of the time -- strobing doesn't help fixed-gaze situations. But blur reduction strobing can help eye-tracking situations (tracking a moving object along the screen plane). This happens more often in different kinds of games, like, say, Rocket League. And any other time whenever it's useful to remove motion blur *and* remove stutters simultaneously. This can be good for say, "Sonic Hedgehog" style super-fast-horizontal-scroll platformer games (butter smooth & sharp scrolling) or fast-performing RTS games where you pan the map around very fast with zero motion blur. To successfully achieve both (no stutter and no blur) simultaneously requires the triple lock (framerate, stroberate, refreshrate) and a good engine / good mouse that doesn't add unnecessary stutters.
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 01 Sep 2017, 00:41

hammelgammler wrote:With the introduction of even higher refresh rates, possibly even 480Hz already, tearing and microstutters shouldn't be "that" noticeable anymore right? In games where you get 240-480 FPS (~360 AVG) you pretty much want to run at 480Hz regardless to get the most fluid experience or do I feel placebo? I tested it a few times, and fixed 120Hz (even with ULMB which adds lag) it feels much more responsive, especially in situations where it drops to <80 FPS/Hz. I always read that it should feel more fluid with G-Sync.

While there are definitely diminishing points of returns -- higher Hz makes microstutter harder to see. It definitely gradually diminishes.
But it's not completely gone. Microstutter (from 400fps-600fps) is still visible even at 480Hz in my own personal tests -- barely -- when the microstutter is bad enough. All it takes is a low-frequency harmonic (e.g. 475fps@480Hz or 485fps@480Hz will create 5 visible microjitters per second) if the motionspeed is sufficiently fast enough.

Microstutter amplitudes are a function of framerate versus refresh rate versus motion speed.

Microstutter Mathematics
During unsynchronized frame rates mismatching refresh rates -- an object position can jitter by (1/Hz)th of its motionspeed around its ideal position. So a movement of 1920 pixels per second (one screen width per second at 1920x1080) means at 240Hz an object can jitter around its ideal positon of (speed/hz) = (1920/240) = 8 pixels of stutter-vibration amplitude as the object moves across the screen. Mathematically, microstutter vibration amplitude is a very simple calculation. If the harmonic is high (e.g. 120 "microstutters" per second, like 120fps@240Hz) -- that "microstutter" vibrates so fast that it simply looks like extra motion blur and we don't call it "microstutter" because. It's simply extra blur much like 30fps@60Hz being blurrier than 60fps@60Hz. But extra motion blur is often more comfortable than random stuttering -- smoother 30fps@60Hz looks better than super-stuttery 37fps@60Hz. Whenever the harmonics are low frequency enough (e.g. 5 microstutters per second), it's still visible, even at 480Hz, given sufficient resolution & sufficient motionspeeds. Microsttuters can come from harmonic frequencies -- e.g. 62fps @ 60Hz creates 2 stutters per second. Likewise for 482fps at 480Hz (Even if the microstutter amplitude is greatly reduced. At same motionspeed, it is 60/480ths = 1/8th the distance in the microstutter vibration amplitude at 480Hz as at 60Hz for those harmonic-frequency microstuttering).

Strobing amplifies microstutters
It's very important to control all sources of microstutter (accurate mouse, accurate game engine, fast CPU, fast GPU, etc) if you hate microstutter. Using GSYNC/FreeSync won't eliminate motion blur, so most stutter is hidden in the motion blur. That said, GSYNC/FreeSync will only fix the stutter of varying frame rates (since during VRR, framerate is the Hz, and Hz is the framerate -- frame rate changes appear stutterfree [Animation]), not the microstutter of your mouse-tracking imprecisions.

However, during blur reduction (strobing), there is no motion blur to hide/obscure tiny microstutter. That's why strobing (During VSYNC OFF) often looks much more stuttery/jittery than non-strobed, until you lock framerate/refreshrate/stroberate as a single unity. (virtual reality requires that, but it also usefully applies to ULMB/LightBoost/etc).

If you're not sensitive to stutter, this isn't important at all to you. And if you don't mind motion blur then simply using VRR (GSYNC/FreeSync) is quite a fine visual fix for most stutter/microstutter.

Future combining of VRR + strobing
Right now, we're mostly stuck without the ability to combine strobing and VRR simultaneously, it's one-or-the-other. If the world could combine ULMB *and* GSYNC, that would hit many birds with one stone (fix the fragile jitteriness problem of strobing). When variable-rate strobing becomes more widespread/available, it will also be important for framerates to remain than flicker-fusion threshold, or low framerates will flicker severely. So basically a ~75fps-85fps minimum during future variable-framerate strobing.
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby masterotaku » 01 Sep 2017, 03:01

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Right now, we're mostly stuck without the ability to combine strobing and VRR simultaneously, it's one-or-the-other.


Image

I wouldn't say "mostly" when it's pretty easy to do currently on G-Sync monitors, although unofficially. I could make it work correctly up to 125Hz, and lexlazootin up to 144Hz with his 240Hz monitor. As you say, the problem right now is unwanted low fps situations, like load screens or sudden stutters. They can be a flicker-fest, making the monitor strobe at 40Hz but with very uneven strobing (I guess it's switching multipliers quickly). But as long as during normal gameplay fps are >=40, everything is totally smooth and without double strobing, especially if your eyes can handle the 40-60Hz strobing range and you don't mind variable brightness.
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby laped » 01 Sep 2017, 11:05

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Hello,

There is a way to remove the frameskipping on the VIewsonic XG2530 -- open a Custom Resolution Utility and then increase Vertical Total to 1150. The frame skipping stops and the 240Hz works.

Regarding the XL2540 versus XL2546, if you're not going to use DyAc, both of the monitors are extremely similar.


Do you know if this works for the AOC AG251FZ too?
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Re: looking for a new 240hz monitor purely for csgo

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 01 Sep 2017, 15:15

laped wrote:
Chief Blur Buster wrote:Hello,

There is a way to remove the frameskipping on the VIewsonic XG2530 -- open a Custom Resolution Utility and then increase Vertical Total to 1150. The frame skipping stops and the 240Hz works.

Regarding the XL2540 versus XL2546, if you're not going to use DyAc, both of the monitors are extremely similar.


Do you know if this works for the AOC AG251FZ too?

It's been successfully tested on my XG2530 & already bug-reported to ViewSonic. They're fixing it but existing users have a workaround. I don't have the AG251FZ, but try this:

Image
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