Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me pick

[jorimt]

Well, for $400, high Hz IPS is out of the picture. TN is the best bang for your buck, but it isn't optimal for multi-purpose/multimedia usage.

I'm thinking since you're so used to VA (which has probably improved significantly since you purchase your current monitor; you never gave me a year/model), that maybe you should consider this 144Hz G-SYNC VA model (24" VA not available, though it is the first high refresh panel available from a company other than AU Optronics [Samsung]):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0NF8RI?tag=blurbust-20

It's a little above your price point, but it's probably going to suit your needs best. Note that it does not feature ULMB (strobing), however, and it is curved (which may be a deal breaker).

TFT Central has an in-depth review of it here:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/ace ... r_z271.htm

The only other alternative (with G-SYNC) in that price range with your requirements is TN, but any recent, well reviewed 1080p monitor would be 27" at minimum.

If none of these end up suiting your needs or budget, you'd have to look into getting a a non-G-SYNC high refresh or 60Hz non-gaming monitor, especially if you are interested in a quality IPS (Dell Ultrasharp, etc).

There are further suggestions I can make once we narrow down a few of these points (non-gaming, or high refresh with no G-SYNC, or high refresh with FreeSync only, etc).

[lexebidar]

I have iiyama xb2483hsu
That acer seems to check most of the boxes. It's supposed to be bigger and better VA panel than mine. Gsync and high refresh rates are the selling points and clear upgrade in that matter. It is expensive for 1080p though and not easily available without eye tracking feature. Problemis that this monitor is over 800$ in europe(Poland have weird pricing on some products... most 144hz Tn and 60hz IPS monitors cost about 200-300$.

Missing ulmb might or might not be a problem. I would probably prefer to use gsync anyway (if there was trouble activating both functions).
I've yet to go through whole review(it seems positive) but it doesn't seem to really be ghosting all that much on normal overdrive.
Although users report ghosting and a lot of dead pixels because of the curve process in manufacturing. Also, this res at 27" will probably bug me out sooner or later. Exactly same complaints are bout cfg70/73 samsung monitors. Ghosting, purple tint sometimes and dead pixels.

Overall it looks like an ok options but bad user reports, price and gaming design are off putting.

Btw - How would 120hz strobing mode feel when playing game capped at 60fps?(with half vsync or riva tuner) I suppose it would flicker twice on each frame? If I were to get nonGsync monitor, I would like to use low motion blur feature but some games are hard locked to 60 or 30 fps and some have very demanding performance. Just a consideration...

[jorimt]

Honestly, user reviews and owners threads can only take you so far before they descend into a "grass is always greener" OCD fest; You look at B, and they say how much better A is than B, and then you look at A, and they say how much better B is than A.

That's not to say you can't glean some good info on a model's weaknesses, but I can't think of one that hasn't received any sort of complaint, or one that only suffers from a single issue, etc.

Again, nothing you buy is going to tick all those boxes, and none of them are going to be perfect.

That said, I fully understand the pricing differences in your country, which is why a gaming TN, or a non-gaming IPS would probably be priced better.

It would be a bit of a shame for you to "upgrade" to a 60Hz IPS though, as you would be missing out on high refresh/G-SYNC entirely, which is a big part of the point.

Then again, if you go with a TN panel, any worth your while are likely going to be 27" minimum (I can't guarantee the quality of smaller sized models that don't have any reviews), and you may want to see one in person at a store, if possible, just to make sure you don't mind the visual differences it has when compared to a VA panel.

As for strobing, do you have any experience with it? It's a subjective technique (which can be toggled; it's a mode), and relies on a rock solid framerate. If you get fluctuating framerates, high refresh rate G-SYNC is the more full-proof/less fussy option.

Both are different tools for different jobs; if you buy a TN G-SYNC, it would have both.

If you're still interested in TN models, I could dig some recommendations up (including some European-only models now that I know where you are located).

[lexebidar]

Yeah it's more of a side grade than upgrade(60hz ips) but maybe better picture quality matters more than higher refresh rate for singleplayer experiences.
Are there any non gsync strobing ips monitors btw?
maybe 75hz ips panels are an option? I bet 60hz locked games feel terrible on those anyway.

These are the only TN gsync monitors. 8 in total. 4x1080 and 4x1440p. Sorry for the polish site but it lists the models nicely. When removed dell with banding problems and Acer with bad looking red stand (not a big problem), there is even less.
https://www.morele.net/komputery/monito ... 1087835/1/
The market for non Gsync 144hz is much much broader and cheaper.

As for strobing, do you have any experience with it? It's a subjective technique (which can be toggled; it's a mode), and relies on a rock solid framerate. If you get fluctuating framerates, high refresh rate G-SYNC is the more full-proof/less fussy option.

I did not had experience with gsync or 144hz. The only high fps I remember is from my old 120hz eizo crt and it was awesome(nostalgia!).
I am not talking about fluctuating framerate but a locked one.
Right now I know I can run all games at 60fps locked with vsync and riva tuner for better frame pacing but let's be real - even with gtx 1080 not many games reach 144hz constantly except doom(loved the campaign) and competitive games and I do not play competitive games.
How would 60fps lock behave on high refresh rate strobing monitor without gsync? Steady 60fps.
I know gsync is for fluctuating framerate and smoothes things out ... and it sounds so awesome... Not to ever again worry about framerate drops and game stutters or goes down to 30fps. But right now triple buffering or adaptive sync helps with some of that.

I am looking for immersive experience:
-With IPS, the glow/and glow angles can sometimes ruin it
-With VA, ghosting and flickering of dark shades can sometimes ruin it
-And with TN... Well I thought that the only problem of TN was bad angles but it seems that banding too recently. I sit in front of a monitor anyway so angles "should" not matter much.

We are going in circles here and I am starting to sound like a broken record. I will keep on reading and probably stay With my iiyama anyway. Maybe it's a bad time to buy a new monitor now.
Hope my english is ok and does not make me look like some weirdo demanding magic on monitor forum

[jorimt]

Are there any non gsync strobing ips monitors btw?

Not that I know of, but there are non-G-SYNC BenQ (TN) monitors with strobing. Not sure what they run price-wise in your country though.

These are the only TN gsync monitors. 8 in total. 4x1080 and 4x1440p. Sorry for the polish site but it lists the models nicely. When removed dell with banding problems and Acer with bad looking red stand (not a big problem), there is even less.
https://www.morele.net/komputery/monito ... 1087835/1/
The market for non Gsync 144hz is much much broader and cheaper.

Are those all within your price range? If so, I can track down some pros/cons between them, and make a recommendation. I assume the four 1080p models would be preferred for performance reasons.

How would 60fps lock behave on high refresh rate strobing monitor without gsync? Steady 60fps.

No high refresh strobing models have a single strobe 60Hz mode due to safety issues (epilepsy concerns from flicker, etc), so you'd have to run it at 120Hz. I'm not the strobing expert here, so perhaps someone else will chime in, though I don't think 60 FPS/120Hz strobing would have the intended effect.

I know gsync is for fluctuating framerate and smoothes things out ... and it sounds so awesome... Not to ever again worry about framerate drops and game stutters or goes down to 30fps. But right now triple buffering or adaptive sync helps with some of that.

G-SYNC is great for fluctuating framerates, and doesn't include any of the tearing caused by adaptive V-SYNC, or the input lag caused by both it and triple buffer V-SYNC when setup properly.

I am looking for immersive experience:
-With IPS, the glow/and glow angles can sometimes ruin it
-With VA, ghosting and flickering of dark shades can sometimes ruin it
-And with TN... Well I thought that the only problem of TN was bad angles but it seems that banding too recently. I sit in front of a monitor anyway so angles "should" not matter much.

Pick your poison.

We are going in circles here and I am starting to sound like a broken record. I will keep on reading and probably stay With my iiyama anyway. Maybe it's a bad time to buy a new monitor now.
Hope my english is ok and does not make me look like some weirdo demanding magic on monitor forum

Your English is perfectly understandable, and don't worry, native English speakers don't have a problem demanding perfection from technology themselves (internet is full of them, in fact).

I'm happy to have provided a reality check, if that's all it has been, and you keeping your current monitor for now is a wholly viable option as well.

But in my personal opinion, I think high refresh rate and/or G-SYNC are worth whatever trade-offs you may encounter.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Pick your poison.

Yep. But you can still find high-Hz monitors that probably is much more wow than a 10-year-old LCD display. Less lag, better picture, VRR capability,

No high refresh strobing models have a single strobe 60Hz mode due to safety issues (epilepsy concerns from flicker, etc)

They are generally leery about doing it, with some exceptions:
-- ULMB 60Hz hack
-- Some older Benq/Zowie monitors
-- Custom mod via zisworks backlight controller (And our 480Hz tests)
-- Certain HDTVs with a 60Hz strobe mode
-- Discontinued OLED monitor, Dell U3017Q

so you'd have to run it at 120Hz. I'm not the strobing expert here, so perhaps someone else will chime in, though I don't think 60 FPS/120Hz strobing would have the intended effect.

Some software can convert 120Hz strobing into 60Hz strobing by using software-based black frame insertion to black-out every other strobe. Certain versions of MAME as well as WinUAE have command-line options to enable black frame insertion. So it ends up looking like 60Hz strobing that way.

I know gsync is for fluctuating framerate and smoothes things out ... and it sounds so awesome... Not to ever again worry about framerate drops and game stutters or goes down to 30fps. But right now triple buffering or adaptive sync helps with some of that.

GSYNC can also benefit fixed-framerate gaming too. Basically, it behaves as a form of an easier low-lag VSYNC ON that looks like consistent VSYNC ON but has less lag than VSYNC ON. Plus it also has the bonus of avoiding stutter whenever framerate briefly slows down.

For example, GSYNC can erase visible stutter from tiny framedrop-style slowdowns 60fps->59fps->58fps->59fps->60fps since there's no such thing as a missed VSYNC interval with VRR. The refresh cycle is simply delayed -- even just one microsecond -- if you're one microsecond too late for VSYNC, for example. So it's great for fixed-framerate and 60fps-locked games too.

GSYNC can help with emulators for example, running perfect 60fps, or perfect 53fps. And some video players, such as SMPlayer in Direct3D mode, support VRR so playing 48fps videos will look smooth. And videos that switch framerates (24fps -> 60fps) will look properly smooth too.

So VRR can also wonderfully help with fixed-framerate without needing to change refresh rates. Game framerate locked to 53fps? It's a perfect stutterfree 53fps@53Hz. Video file playing at 48fps? The monitor does perfect stutterfree 48fps@48Hz. Console port or emulator running locked to 59.94Hz? Ditto. Any exact fraction of a frame rate, the monitor can follows precisely. It looks like the monitor is running perfectly synchronized. Etc.

And, don't forget, 60fps@144Hz GSYNC is much lower lag than 60fps@60Hz. That's because each "60Hz" refresh-cycle is scanned out in 1/144sec on a 144Hz GSYNC monitor. Whereas you can get 50ms bottom-edge input lag (minimum 2 frame buffers + slow scanout) during VSYNC ON 60Hz even without monitor processing lag -- this suddenly reduces to less than 10ms bottom-edge (1 frame buffer + faster scanout) input lag during framerate-locked 60fps running on 144Hz GSYNC. All at the same time merrily looking just like 60fps@60Hz VSYNC ON -- but with none of the ridiculous buffering lag nor scanout lag. The faster frame-scanouts are worthwhile.

And if you want even less input lag, 60fps@240Hz GSYNC has less lag than 60fps@144Hz GSYNC. Both looks like perfect 60fps@60Hz GSYNC.

There are 165Hz GSYNC monitors now, so your framerate-locked content (60fps) will scan-out in 1/165sec, far less input lag than a traditional 1/60sec scanout. I bet the vertical lines skew a lot on an old 60Hz Iiyama at http://www.testufo.com/scanskew -- that's mucho scanout lag during slower scanouts.

True, VRR is chiefly marketed to benefit variable-framerate content, but what many people do not realize is that a 144Hz or 240Hz GSYNC/FreeSync monitor actually massively reduces input lag of fixed-framerate VSYNC ON content such as emulators, console ports, etc.

[lexebidar]

@Chief Blur Buster
I am already using RTSS with everything. Playing without vsync is a nightmare. With vsync it's very delayed. I get best results with borderless or with rtss 60 lock.

Yep, seems like it's either Gsync monitors(1080 or 1440p) or good 60hz 1080p monitor(but really good).
Going with 144hz non vrr route would be a nightmare it seems. Sure, as You both explained even 60fps capped at 144hz would feel better but it seems redundant using it this way. I am starting to lean more towards accepting weakness of TN (if bad angles is the only weakness, I will not accept banding) rather than weakness of IPS (glow and angles ruining dark scenes experience but I might be wrong based on my limited experiences).
Is there any better VA/AMVA monitor than mine Iiyama xb2483hsu? Aren't best TVs VA panels? IPS hd tv's are rating much lower on rtings.

@jorimt
From Gsync TN list I linked, those are in my price range (about 2k there)
Asus ROG PG248Q, AOC AG241QG, Acer XB241YUbmiprz, Acer XB241Hbmipr, AOC G2460PG. All Gsync Some 1080p, some 1440p. But it should not matter much thanks to vrr. Dell S24 or S27 and Asus ROG PG248Q have reported banding issues, so probably other too since I bet those are the same panels. I would probably need to test this myself to really see. Asus ROG PG258Q is over but still lower than ips gsync monitors.

I do think it's a good thing users are constantly looking for "perfection". Sure, ignorance is bliss but if everyone was thinking that, we would stop in place and die With monitors, it's a shame that both plasma and crt were abandoned and not worked on more. Who knows what CRT could've been like in 2017 with nowadays tech improvements. Maybe the tech was just to old to expand upon.

[jorimt]

Sure, as You both explained even 60fps capped at 144hz would feel better but it seems redundant using it this way.

60 FPS 144Hz G-SYNC is superior to 60 FPS 60Hz V-SYNC in every way, I assure you. No sync-induced stutter or input lag, making for a much smoother, more responsive experience.

A high refresh rate G-SYNC monitor also future-proofs you for whenever you upgrade your system.

Is there any better VA/AMVA monitor than mine Iiyama xb2483hsu? Aren't best TVs VA panels? IPS hd tv's are rating much lower on rtings.

Is there a better VA gaming panel than your current monitor? In regards to motion clarity, probably, but in regards to contrast ratio and backlight bleed, probably not.

And modern IPS televisions (which aren't usually the best quality, and have to be much larger, accentuating their weaknesses) aren't a good way to gauge the quality of the best modern IPS monitors; apples and oranges, really.

One thing both TN and IPS will not give you is the smearing of dark shades in motion that you experience on your current display.

Asus ROG PG248Q, AOC AG241QG, Acer XB241YUbmiprz, Acer XB241Hbmipr, AOC G2460PG. All Gsync Some 1080p, some 1440p. But it should not matter much thanks to vrr. Dell S24 or S27 and Asus ROG PG248Q have reported banding issues, so probably other too since I bet those are the same panels. I would probably need to test this myself to really see. Asus ROG PG258Q is over but still lower than ips gsync monitors.

There is a review for the Asus ROG PG248Q here:
https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/asus-pg248q/

It does mention inversion artifacts common to TN panels.

I don't know much about the AOC models, but I do know their overdrive implementations can sometimes be a bit weak.

As for the Asus ROG PG258Q, it's a 6-bit panel with FRC to 8-bit, so it couldn't replicate as many colors as your current monitor, and would look pale/washed out in comparison. I own the same panel (different brand), and while it is great for performance/competitive gaming purposes, it isn't a good multi or general purpose monitor, which is what you seem to need.

I do think it's a good thing users are constantly looking for "perfection". Sure, ignorance is bliss but if everyone was thinking that, we would stop in place and die With monitors, it's a shame that both plasma and crt were abandoned and not worked on more. Who knows what CRT could've been like in 2017 with nowadays tech improvements. Maybe the tech was just to old to expand upon.

I'm just trying to save you some time; you're not going to find anything without some issue you will have to ignore.

Also, there were never dedicated plasma monitors to my knowledge, and the reason plasma televisions died out was high energy consumption, image-retention/burn-in, resolution limitations, and manufacturing costs.

While CRT didn't suffer from image-retention issues, what mainly killed it was weight, form factor, and resolution limitations.

The next holy grail for perfection seekers is OLED, but as an OLED television owner myself, I will tell you early OLED monitors will suffer from image retention (and likely the risk of permanent burn-in from game's with heavy static user interfaces) and uneven brightness (a form of banding) on dark greys and near blacks.

Again, not one display technology has it all.

[RealNC]

What's the fascination with 60FPS? Why not 65? 70? 80?

Why are you so keen to run games at 60FPS?

[lexebidar]

What's the fascination with 60FPS? Why not 65? 70? 80?

Why are you so keen to run games at 60FPS?

I am not. some games are hard coded to run at 60 like bethesda games. They can go higher but physics crap out