Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me pick

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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by RealNC » 19 Sep 2017, 06:04

Also note that most banding in games (like the night sky in many games) has very little to do with your panel. It's the game's fault, not the monitor's. They mess up the color conversion to sRGB (by "mess up" I mean "not doing any"), and completely lack dithering. Many developers aren't even aware they need to do this.
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lexebidar
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by lexebidar » 19 Sep 2017, 06:22

So the banding thing is overblown? People on overclock.net are raging about it with dell gsync monitors and on asus site, there is a topic about pg248q banding.

When I had Dell u2417H before I returned it, it showed much less banding than my iiyama amva. But that was because it was "crushing" a little bit.

edit:
anyway - any interesting monitors are coming up? I don't need a new monitor NOW. I can wait if some new gsync stuff is coming. But right now I feel mixed between either getting normal good 60hz ips(sidegrade), gsync monitor(upgrade with tradeoffs for lot of $$$) or normal 144hz monitor(upgrade with tradeoffs for easy $$$). VA gsync monitors are curved so not too good.

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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by jorimt » 19 Sep 2017, 08:48

It's really difficult to gauge the "banding" issue being reported, can you post the links to the threads you've been reading?

Again, 8-bit bands, unless 10-bit is dithered down to 8-bit, which is rare. What test image were you using for banding?

As for the "crushed" blacks on the Dell, there's an easy way to approximate the average gamma tracking on your current monitor:

Image

Take a few steps back from your monitor, and/or squint; which of those squares blends in with the background most? It can help to open the image in a new tab and center it in the browser.

So, are there any upcoming monitors you'd be interested in at your price point? Well, IPS seems to be out of the question, since modern IPS panels no longer feature "low glow" tech, and the 4k HDR models coming next year with local dimming (which will have their own issues; blooming among them) are far beyond your stated budget and needs.

There's TN, but I really think you should try one in person, or be ready to return it.

That leaves VA. We recently posted about these models coming out next year from AOC:
http://www.blurbusters.com/aoc-to-relea ... e-in-2018/

But those are also curved. I can't think of any known G-SYNC VA panel that isn't curved and/or ultrawide.

If anyone else has suggestions, feel free to share them.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

lexebidar
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by lexebidar » 19 Sep 2017, 09:46

I was just reading dell s2417dg and s2716dg overclock.net threads.

About that pattern... My iiyama xb2483hsu-b2 seems to have about 1.9 gamma... my fiancee also sees 1.9 box to blend in.... that is very interesting since it seems that my iiyama is actually too bright compared to dell I returned. Not dell too dark. (2.2 is darker than 1.9).
I never looked at it that way...

What do You mean by "no glow" tech? I can give u2417h another chance... Or try to find another good 24" ips. There are few. Iiyama also have one. Or I can go for older monitors with "no glow" whatever You mean :)

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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by jorimt » 19 Sep 2017, 10:01

Yes, then you've become accustomed to improper gamma. It's either out of spec out-of-the-box on your monitor (not uncommon), or set that way to avoid the VA black crush issue.

"Low glow." It was a filter that used to be placed over a select few IPS-type panels years ago. It effectively removed the glow from the IPS panel. It has never been used on a high refresh rate gaming screen, and I doubt it ever will.

Low glow AH-IPS panel (6-bit FRC):
https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-u2414h/

No glow PLS (IPS-type) panel (true 8-bit):
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eizo_ev2736w.htm

I doubt either are available new however (the Ezio being the only "no glow" IPS-type panel I know of), so they're going to be hard to find, are only 60Hz, and aren't particularly intended for gaming.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

lexebidar
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by lexebidar » 19 Sep 2017, 10:13

Both are available no problem new. I am shopping here (https://www.morele.net/komputery/monito ... erowe-523/) although I am not sure how do I feel about buying 3yo monitor.

U2414H cheaper than U2417H and Eizo is very expensive(as expensive as 27" gsync 1440p TN).
The pcmonitors review does not mention low glow on u2414h. Low glow or"no glow" sounds good. what's the catch? Even ghosting looks good on that eizo.

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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by jorimt » 19 Sep 2017, 10:29

Description of "A-TW filter" Straight from NEC:
http://www.necdisplay.com/faq/additiona ... isplays/14
The A-TW filter is an additional film that is applied to some LCD panels with the aim of improving off-axis viewing of the display by reducing the "glow" effect that can be seen when viewing very dark images at extreme angles on S-IPS LCD panels. While it does reduce the glow effect, it can also introduce a slight coloration artifact that causes the glow to appear green when viewed from one angle, and magenta from another.
I'd also add these filters are more expensive to include, but other than the coloration artifact they mention (which is only seen at extreme angles), there isn't much of a downside.

If you're looking for best picture quality (it seems a higher refresh rate and G-SYNC aren't as important to you), you'd probably only be happy with the Eizo. I think modern gaming screens just make too many compromises for you to personally handle.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

lexebidar
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by lexebidar » 22 Sep 2017, 11:18

OK, back on topic (I am back from my little vacation so I had time to think).
The clear upgrade for me would be to either get gsync/ulmb or best screen quality possibly at 60hz(and bigger). The latter probably means 4k and my pc is not ready... 1060 6gb + motion clarity and gsync might be more important than 4k/big ips.

So for now back to search for Gsync monitors with different panels(hopefully no exaggerated banding) than Dell S24/27.
How is this one?
AOC AG251FG. Well reviewed TN with gamma at 2.2 OUT OF THE BOX according to pcmonitors review. Sure, AOC AG271QG(ips) is probably safer choice but it's way more expensive and I have bad experience with ips glow... and those ips monitors with 144hz panels have widely reported bad QC problems.

AG251FG should be safe bet as far as performance goes(1080p), PPI(24,5"), Gsync and/or ULMB. Even though I do not play games competitively it should be fun replaying older games at 240hz with close to no motion blur. And for all new games, gsync would be great.
The question is banding. It's 6bit+frc so different than dell panels. Those are true 8bit(which apparently does not matter at all), so maybe there won't be any more banding than what is expected. The potential issues with this model are slightly grainy coating, contrast not exactly reaching 1000 and ULMB not being the best(just ok). Review does not mention anything about bad banding on gradients. Just typical TN viewing angle problems.
I am not exactly looking for faster gaming monitor ever with 240hz... I am just checking out if there is a NON ips Gsync screen without overblown banding. At least before we Flat va gsync or next batch of IPS gsync monitors.

So far, I've excluded those Gsync monitors:
-All 144hz 1440p ips monitors due to bad qc and glow. (4k models with gsync and 60hz are still to be researched like AG271UG)
-Ultrawides are not practical to me and I don't have enough space on desk (I can go max little below 30" 16:9)
-VA panels have bad pixel response, low ppi (1080 27"), curve and are somehow too expensive (although contrast is lovely)
-Dell monitors due to banding and QC of frameless design.

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jorimt
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by jorimt » 22 Sep 2017, 12:07

I've exhausted my recommendations over the course of our conversation (which still stand), so I don't have much else to recommend.

I believe the AOC AG251FG uses the same panel as the ASUS ROG PG258Q and Acer Predator XB252Q, the last of which I own. I will warn you on a couple things here:

1. Color reproduction on these panels compared to a true 8-bit IPS, TN, or VA is poor; it will look pale and washed out in comparison, and cannot physically reproduce some colors due to the limitation of 6-bit.
2. Just because their gamma tracked a near perfect 2.2, does not mean yours will; each panel, even of the same model, will drift, but it should be close enough. This goes for any aspect of out-of-the-box calibration; not one unit is exactly the same.
3. There will be some mild inversion artifacts, which PC monitors detailed in their review.

As for banding, in theory, 6-bit FRC should have more banding than an 8-bit panel. If you have a go-to test image, link it to me, and I can take an image of it on my XB252Q (the same panel) with my camera to give you an idea on what to expect.

We really need to gauge your idea of "unacceptable" banding, because what you're talking about may be unavoidable on any monitor.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

lexebidar
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Re: Do all TN G-sync monitors have banding issues? Help me p

Post by lexebidar » 22 Sep 2017, 12:57

I am not saying that monitors like AOC AG271QG are still out of the question. Those are just more expensive and have bad bleeding and normal ips glow.

Seems like ASUS PG258Q and Alienware AW2518H(I like the design of this one) use the same panel too.

banding - This image Image
Looks like this on dell Tn monitors
Image
or resident evil 7 looks like this (also on Dell)
Image.

Same with Asus PG248Q as some report.
Seems like some of 8 bit TN panels have either too low gamma or some incorrect setting that exaggerates visible banding in the image... but I am not sure if those images are to be believed due to badly taken photos. But there is almost 500 pages topic on overclock for a reason... http://www.overclock.net/t/1577511/dell ... hread/4630

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