Would "Dim" frames provide a similar blur-reducing benefit to "black" frames?

[Ozzuneoj]

I was thinking about this earlier and it really made me wonder...

If you have a 240Hz OLED display, it seems that with current technology you can expect at best 120 frames per second with BFI because you cannot do anything sub-refresh due to the lack of a backlight. The same limitation applies if we're talking about software implemented BFI on OLED or LCD since you can't manipulate the backlight directly this way.

What if, instead of black frames, you had very dim frames? So there would be (up to) 240 real frames, but every other frame is simply darker, but not black.

Or, what if brightness AND contrast were adjusted for these frames?

If you had the right balance, would this be enough to reduce (not eliminate) the sample-and-hold artifacts to improve motion clarity while also reducing the negative affects? Less flicker, less impact on perceived brightness\contrast, and some of the motion benefits of 240 frames rather than 120?

I wouldn't expect to achieve the same result as a real strobed backlight or CRT, but if a combination of high frame rate and dim (but real!) frames could be used, it could make blur reduction a more palatable feature for those that hate the downsides. Like, a compromise of comfort, image quality and motion clarity.

Does this make sense? More importantly, does anything do this already?

EDIT: Woa, just had another thought regarding this. If nvidia (and soon AMD apparently) are doing frame generation, they could implement some level of "dim" BFI in frame generation to improve motion clarity without even needing to render all those extra frames the usual way. So, 240fps with frame generation, with some of the generated frames being dimmer\darker to improve motion clarity.

I actually hope nvidia doesn't do this, because they'll make it only available on their next $2500 flagship card, and only a handful of games will bother to implement it. I'd rather see them implement universal driver-level BFI for all their cards.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Dim frames actually help reduce blur a bit, but not as much. It's tantamount to simulating phosphor decay.

I'm working on CRT electron beam simulators, which do something similar.

It's a tradeoff; less flicker but also less blur reduction.

I may get Retrotink 4K to add "dim frame" injection. We shall see. Retrotink 4K scaler/video processor is a box-in-middle BFI injection solution that can do everything TestUFO BFI can, including www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=4&bonusufo=1 as well as www.testufo.com/blackframes#multistrobe=2 ... Believed to be one of the world's first.

And it even has a HDR nits booster (brighten BFI by converting SDR to HDR and "boosting" SDR brightness using HDR brightness headroom)

Here's a glowing review:



See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12342

The box is firmware upgradeable. If you ask Mike to add "Dim Frame Injection", he will probably eventually add it.

[Ozzuneoj]

Dim frames actually help reduce blur a bit, but not as much. It's tantamount to simulating phosphor decay.

I'm working on CRT electron beam simulators, which do something similar.

It's a tradeoff; less flicker but also less blur reduction.

I may get Retrotink 4K to add "dim frame" injection. We shall see. Retrotink 4K scaler/video processor is a box-in-middle BFI injection solution that can do everything TestUFO BFI can, including www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=4&bonusufo=1 as well as www.testufo.com/blackframes#multistrobe=2 ... Believed to be one of the world's first.

And it even has a HDR nits booster (brighten BFI by converting SDR to HDR and "boosting" SDR brightness using HDR brightness headroom)

Here's a glowing review:



See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12342

The box is firmware upgradeable. If you ask Mike to add "Dim Frame Injection", he will probably eventually add it.

Thank you for your input on Dim frame insertion! I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy.

Regarding the Retrotink 4k, it is an interesting device, but it isn't really ideal for a lot of situations since it uses only HDMI 2.0 (no 1440P 240hz or even 4k 120Hz), will likely cost somewhere just under $1000 and also is meant for OLED displays (more $$$).

I would be interested to see a software\driver implementation of dim frame insertion so that it takes every other frame and applies a user customizable filter to it to darken it and lower contrast. It seems like the technology to do this should exist, and it is just a matter of someone programming the software to do it. I think if nvidia\AMD\Intel put their driver teams on it they could make it a normal feature that everyone would have access to on any PC.

[Chief Blur Buster]

I would be interested to see a software\driver implementation of dim frame insertion so that it takes every other frame and applies a user customizable filter to it to darken it and lower contrast. It seems like the technology to do this should exist, and it is just a matter of someone programming the software to do it. I think if nvidia\AMD\Intel put their driver teams on it they could make it a normal feature that everyone would have access to on any PC.

I've got a bounty for a software developer creating an open source Windows Indirect Display Driver (Apache or MIT). There's a sample in the DDK. Know any window driver developers?

I also want to add virtual-VRR (algorithm from www.testufo.com/vrr) and software-based overdrive.

[Ozzuneoj]

I would be interested to see a software\driver implementation of dim frame insertion so that it takes every other frame and applies a user customizable filter to it to darken it and lower contrast. It seems like the technology to do this should exist, and it is just a matter of someone programming the software to do it. I think if nvidia\AMD\Intel put their driver teams on it they could make it a normal feature that everyone would have access to on any PC.

I've got a bounty for a software developer creating an open source Windows Indirect Display Driver (Apache or MIT). There's a sample in the DDK. Know any window driver developers?

I also want to add virtual-VRR (algorithm from www.testufo.com/vrr) and software-based overdrive.

Boy, that would be amazing to have a driver that could do that. It'd be a complete game changer for PCs, especially with OLED starting to creep (slowly) into the mainstream. I don't know anything about driver programming, but is your bounty posted online anywhere? I can put the word out wherever I feel it may be relevant.

[JeffMcFadden]

Dim frames actually help reduce blur a bit, but not as much. It's tantamount to simulating phosphor decay.

I'm working on CRT electron beam simulators, which do something similar.

It's a tradeoff; less flicker but also less blur reduction.

I may get Retrotink 4K to add "dim frame" injection. We shall see. Retrotink 4K scaler/video processor is a box-in-middle BFI injection solution that can do everything TestUFO BFI can, including www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=4&bonusufo=1 as well as www.testufo.com/blackframes#multistrobe=2 ... Believed to be one of the world's first.

And it even has a HDR nits booster (brighten BFI by converting SDR to HDR and "boosting" SDR brightness using HDR brightness headroom)

Here's a glowing review:



See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12342

The box is firmware upgradeable. If you ask Mike to add "Dim Frame Injection", he will probably eventually add it.

It is my dream to have a setup like that. I really love it.