I definitely notice the blur on my 2011 120Hz, 2ms TN gaming monitor (SA950).
Therefore, I wanted a BenQ XL2720+ or any 144+Hz ULMB monitor upgrade.
I thought this was the best place to ask if that would remove blur if I get 60+ FPS, typically 85-100 FPS variable, or if it only works when the FPS surpasses the 144Hz.
Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Yes. It always removes motion blur because it always removes image persistence and also hides LCD pixel transition times.
With that being said, going from 120Hz non-strobed to 120Hz strobed will not be as much of a "wow" factor as going from 60Hz to 120Hz+strobing. If you reach 120FPS on 120Hz, motion blur is much better compared to 60FPS, even without strobing.
With that being said, going from 120Hz non-strobed to 120Hz strobed will not be as much of a "wow" factor as going from 60Hz to 120Hz+strobing. If you reach 120FPS on 120Hz, motion blur is much better compared to 60FPS, even without strobing.
Steam • GitHub • Stack Overflow
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
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HenrikE1234
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 22 Oct 2016, 17:20
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Thank you! I couldn't find this info anywhere else.
So since G-Sync/Freesync only removes tearing with Vsync off, and I can live with tearing but not ghosting, I won't have any use for a G-Sync/Freesync feature, but can just turn off Vsync for the games I can't drive at 144 FPS yet? Is that correct?
So since G-Sync/Freesync only removes tearing with Vsync off, and I can live with tearing but not ghosting, I won't have any use for a G-Sync/Freesync feature, but can just turn off Vsync for the games I can't drive at 144 FPS yet? Is that correct?
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Well, depends. For games with low FPS where it's all over the place (sometimes 30, sometimes 45 and anywhere in between, Mafia 3 anyone?) G-Sync/Freesync make more sense. It's not just about tearing. Variable refresh rate helps a lot with stutter. Tearing is only one part of these sync technologies. The stutter reduction is actually the most major factor with tearing elimination being a nice thing on the side.
Also, even though motion blur reduction works in all frame rates, if the frame rate is too low you get the "double image effect". For example, with 40FPS on 120Hz strobed, the same image is flashed three times (40*3=120). So in this case it's a "triple image effect". During motion, this amplifies the "flickering" effect of moving objects.
Note that this was also a problem with CRT displays, and even plasma displays. It's a general issue and is not new to LCD displays with strobing backlights. So with low frame rates, g-sync/freesync might actually give you a much better and more enjoyable experience even though there's gonna be more motion blur.
For higher frame rates, it's important IMO to get a monitor that can use motion blur reduction in multiple refresh rates. 60Hz strobing will flicker quite a bit, but what if you can't run a game at 120FPS? If you get a monitor that can strobe in 80/85/90/100hz too, then you can run games in those refresh rates instead. With 85Hz and above, there should be no noticable flicker. Depends on the person though. For some people, flicker disappears after 75Hz, for some only after 85Hz.
Having a monitor that can strobe at various refresh rates avoids both the "double image" effect as well as micro-stutter. Running a game where you get 85FPS in 85Hz mode looks much better compared to 85FPS on a 144Hz mode. And it means you can enable vsync too. Motion blur reduction works best if you use vsync so that frame rate and refresh rate match perfectly. Input lag is quite annoying at 60Hz vsync, but the nice thing is that upping the refresh rate reduces vsync input lag. 85Hz vsync lag is actually quite good, especially if you use a frame limiter to cap to 85FPS and have your monitor run at 85.05Hz. (Which is the best trick in general to reduce vsync input lag.) This is done by editing your monitor's modes using the CRU utility (you just change the "85.000" to "85.05", "120.000" to "120.05", etc.)
However, the monitor needs to be able to accept these slightly off refresh rates and use motion blur reduction on them. Unfortunately, I can't give a recommendation. My only experience lies with the Asus VG248QE, which only supports the LightBoost hack and custom refresh rates just don't work with that. I think your best bet would be to get some feedback from someone with a BenQ monitor, as those as known to support motion blur reduction across a wider range of refresh rates.
Edit: Also a BIG caviat here. For some people, motion blur reduction does a lot. However, there's many people for which it does nothing. You will see people looking at a motion blur reducting display and say "I can't see anything different, except the image appears to be less bright." You might be one of those people. If that's the case, motion blur reduction might be a disappointment to you. It's best if you could somehow try it out first and see if it does anything for you.
Also, even though motion blur reduction works in all frame rates, if the frame rate is too low you get the "double image effect". For example, with 40FPS on 120Hz strobed, the same image is flashed three times (40*3=120). So in this case it's a "triple image effect". During motion, this amplifies the "flickering" effect of moving objects.
Note that this was also a problem with CRT displays, and even plasma displays. It's a general issue and is not new to LCD displays with strobing backlights. So with low frame rates, g-sync/freesync might actually give you a much better and more enjoyable experience even though there's gonna be more motion blur.
For higher frame rates, it's important IMO to get a monitor that can use motion blur reduction in multiple refresh rates. 60Hz strobing will flicker quite a bit, but what if you can't run a game at 120FPS? If you get a monitor that can strobe in 80/85/90/100hz too, then you can run games in those refresh rates instead. With 85Hz and above, there should be no noticable flicker. Depends on the person though. For some people, flicker disappears after 75Hz, for some only after 85Hz.
Having a monitor that can strobe at various refresh rates avoids both the "double image" effect as well as micro-stutter. Running a game where you get 85FPS in 85Hz mode looks much better compared to 85FPS on a 144Hz mode. And it means you can enable vsync too. Motion blur reduction works best if you use vsync so that frame rate and refresh rate match perfectly. Input lag is quite annoying at 60Hz vsync, but the nice thing is that upping the refresh rate reduces vsync input lag. 85Hz vsync lag is actually quite good, especially if you use a frame limiter to cap to 85FPS and have your monitor run at 85.05Hz. (Which is the best trick in general to reduce vsync input lag.) This is done by editing your monitor's modes using the CRU utility (you just change the "85.000" to "85.05", "120.000" to "120.05", etc.)
However, the monitor needs to be able to accept these slightly off refresh rates and use motion blur reduction on them. Unfortunately, I can't give a recommendation. My only experience lies with the Asus VG248QE, which only supports the LightBoost hack and custom refresh rates just don't work with that. I think your best bet would be to get some feedback from someone with a BenQ monitor, as those as known to support motion blur reduction across a wider range of refresh rates.
Edit: Also a BIG caviat here. For some people, motion blur reduction does a lot. However, there's many people for which it does nothing. You will see people looking at a motion blur reducting display and say "I can't see anything different, except the image appears to be less bright." You might be one of those people. If that's the case, motion blur reduction might be a disappointment to you. It's best if you could somehow try it out first and see if it does anything for you.
Steam • GitHub • Stack Overflow
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
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HenrikE1234
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 22 Oct 2016, 17:20
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
I'm one of the people who notices the blur. I think those other guys are busy watching the crosshair... 
And that's on a 120 FPS/120Hz gaming monitor (as I said).
I get the just-under-Hz ideal FPS and I know the input lag at 85Hz with VSync is acceptable to me. Basically, I don't have much issue with input lag at all.
I was actually looking for confirmation whether the 2730Z does the same < 85 strobing as 2720Z. Do you know? It's not on "the list", in fact a few interesting monitors I've been looking at aren't...
One of the missing ones is the Dell S2716DG, which does G-Sync WITH blur reduction!
I like Early Access titles, and some have fluctuating, low framerates although there's no excuse for released games (looking at you, Square Enix!)
I *kind of* suspected the hullabaloo about G-Sync/Freesync was that it fixed stutter as well as tearing, since a well-known, obnoxious reviewer said "the 45 fps sweet spot" and referred to G-Sync as making low fps "buttery smooth". Sounded like babble to me.
But how could that be? I *know* pixel BlackToWhite is still sub 30 fps, and Vsync off means it doesn't wait until next frame (i.e. stutter). Isn't all stutter just fixed by turning VSync off? Isn't it just a matter of stubborn titles refusing to allow VSync off/drivers not being able to force Vsync off?
I mean, HOW could you ever get stutter if Vsync really was off??
And that's on a 120 FPS/120Hz gaming monitor (as I said).I get the just-under-Hz ideal FPS and I know the input lag at 85Hz with VSync is acceptable to me. Basically, I don't have much issue with input lag at all.
I was actually looking for confirmation whether the 2730Z does the same < 85 strobing as 2720Z. Do you know? It's not on "the list", in fact a few interesting monitors I've been looking at aren't...
One of the missing ones is the Dell S2716DG, which does G-Sync WITH blur reduction!
I like Early Access titles, and some have fluctuating, low framerates although there's no excuse for released games (looking at you, Square Enix!)
I *kind of* suspected the hullabaloo about G-Sync/Freesync was that it fixed stutter as well as tearing, since a well-known, obnoxious reviewer said "the 45 fps sweet spot" and referred to G-Sync as making low fps "buttery smooth". Sounded like babble to me.
But how could that be? I *know* pixel BlackToWhite is still sub 30 fps, and Vsync off means it doesn't wait until next frame (i.e. stutter). Isn't all stutter just fixed by turning VSync off? Isn't it just a matter of stubborn titles refusing to allow VSync off/drivers not being able to force Vsync off?
I mean, HOW could you ever get stutter if Vsync really was off??
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Any frame rate that isn't an *exact* multiple of the refresh rate is gonna stutter. It's mathematically impossible for it not to stutter. VSync on/off doesn't matter. It's just that with vsync off, only a part of the screen will stutter (the upper part that still holds the old frame) while with vsync on the whole screen will stutter, since the whole screen holds the old frame. Which is why the stutter is more apparent with vsync on. In these situations, the vsync setting is a compromise between no tearing but more stutter vs tearing with a bit less stutter (but still stutter; it's not gonna go away.)
45FPS on 60Hz or 120Hz is gonna have two kinds of stutter. The natural stutter of 45FPS (which isn't that much, actually) plus the frame rate vs refresh rate aliasing stutter of the FPS/refresh mismatch. Gsync completely eliminates the second kind of stutter. You're left with just the natural stutter of 45FPS, which is quite low. 45FPS in perfect sync to a 45Hz (or 90Hz with 1/2 vsync) mode is tolerable (or at least heaps better compared to 30FPS.) Yes, lots of motion blur, but quite tolerable smoothness.
This is why people who use G-Sync for the first time go crazy about it and shout "45FPS is butter smooth!" Well, it's not really butter smooth (far from it), but compared to non-gsync 45FPS on non-45Hz/90Hz mode, it's like day and night. Way, way better. Or far, far less annoying, depending on your tolerance level of sub-60 frame rates.
Well, you can test this yourself actually. In 120Hz mode, play a game and use RTSS to cap it to 45FPS. It's just gonna be shitty.
Now, switch your monitor to 90Hz. Use nvidia profile inspector and in the game's profile select "1/2" for the vsync setting (this is important; don't just frame cap to 45FPS without 1/2 vsync, unless you monitor can do native 45Hz. No frame capper is gonna be 100% accurate with the frame timing. Only 1/2 vsync *plus* a frame capper for input lag reasons is going to give you the same motion accuracy as a native 45Hz mode). Now play the game again. It will be MUCH better. G-Sync does what you just did, but it works all the time and for all refresh rates, on the fly, while you're playing. And without the input lag. No way to reach g-sync levels of input lag on 45Hz on non-gsync monitors withot disabling vsync. The frame cap helps, but it's still not gonna be as low as g-sync.
Note: you really need profile inspector for this. The nvidia panel does not allow you to set 1/2 full vsync. Only 1/2 adaptive vsync, which is gonna interfere with the frame capper and disable/enable vsync every few seconds.
45FPS on 60Hz or 120Hz is gonna have two kinds of stutter. The natural stutter of 45FPS (which isn't that much, actually) plus the frame rate vs refresh rate aliasing stutter of the FPS/refresh mismatch. Gsync completely eliminates the second kind of stutter. You're left with just the natural stutter of 45FPS, which is quite low. 45FPS in perfect sync to a 45Hz (or 90Hz with 1/2 vsync) mode is tolerable (or at least heaps better compared to 30FPS.) Yes, lots of motion blur, but quite tolerable smoothness.
This is why people who use G-Sync for the first time go crazy about it and shout "45FPS is butter smooth!" Well, it's not really butter smooth (far from it), but compared to non-gsync 45FPS on non-45Hz/90Hz mode, it's like day and night. Way, way better. Or far, far less annoying, depending on your tolerance level of sub-60 frame rates.
Well, you can test this yourself actually. In 120Hz mode, play a game and use RTSS to cap it to 45FPS. It's just gonna be shitty.
Now, switch your monitor to 90Hz. Use nvidia profile inspector and in the game's profile select "1/2" for the vsync setting (this is important; don't just frame cap to 45FPS without 1/2 vsync, unless you monitor can do native 45Hz. No frame capper is gonna be 100% accurate with the frame timing. Only 1/2 vsync *plus* a frame capper for input lag reasons is going to give you the same motion accuracy as a native 45Hz mode). Now play the game again. It will be MUCH better. G-Sync does what you just did, but it works all the time and for all refresh rates, on the fly, while you're playing. And without the input lag. No way to reach g-sync levels of input lag on 45Hz on non-gsync monitors withot disabling vsync. The frame cap helps, but it's still not gonna be as low as g-sync.
Note: you really need profile inspector for this. The nvidia panel does not allow you to set 1/2 full vsync. Only 1/2 adaptive vsync, which is gonna interfere with the frame capper and disable/enable vsync every few seconds.
Steam • GitHub • Stack Overflow
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.
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Falkentyne
- Posts: 2795
- Joined: 26 Mar 2014, 07:23
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
XL2730Z can **NOT** strobe lower than 120hz. Any refresh rate lower than 120hz strobes at 8.3ms pulses, causing MASSIVE stuttering and sync problems, including 100hz. 60hz double strobes since 120hz is 60x2. Don't use it if you want strobing lower than *120hz*.
VT tweaks do NOT work to lower crosstalk on this panel !
XL2735 functions like the XL2720Z but without the "Single Strobe" override, which is missing from the service menu.
100hz strobing works again, and all refresh rates lower than 100hz will double strobe.
VT tweaks once again work; up to VT 1825 to reduce crosstalk by a great deal.
If you want single strobe 60hz-85hz in 1 hz increments, you want the XL2720Z, XL2430T (gamer 1-3 profiles are bugged internal presets), XL2411Z (no displayport) or XL2420Z (24" version of the XL2720Z, no buggy gamer presets like XL2430T). These are the only monitors that can single strobe at 60hz. Gsync ULMB based monitors can strobe at 85hz, and already have accelerated scanout (thus they don't need VT Tweaks nor will they accept them), but you can't adjust the strobe phase (nor would you need to anyway).
VT tweaks do NOT work to lower crosstalk on this panel !
XL2735 functions like the XL2720Z but without the "Single Strobe" override, which is missing from the service menu.
100hz strobing works again, and all refresh rates lower than 100hz will double strobe.
VT tweaks once again work; up to VT 1825 to reduce crosstalk by a great deal.
If you want single strobe 60hz-85hz in 1 hz increments, you want the XL2720Z, XL2430T (gamer 1-3 profiles are bugged internal presets), XL2411Z (no displayport) or XL2420Z (24" version of the XL2720Z, no buggy gamer presets like XL2430T). These are the only monitors that can single strobe at 60hz. Gsync ULMB based monitors can strobe at 85hz, and already have accelerated scanout (thus they don't need VT Tweaks nor will they accept them), but you can't adjust the strobe phase (nor would you need to anyway).
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HenrikE1234
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 22 Oct 2016, 17:20
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
@RealNC: Thx! Yes, I thought about it, and it seems to me you would *perceive* stutter when the FPS is not near an even multiple (actually divisor) of the Hz, i.e. 1/2, 1/3, 1/4. If it's near one of those, the perception will be that of persistence with a sliding tear, as for 1/1, and if the persistence is going low toward where humans stop perceiving motion (I would say around 25-30 FPS for most people), the motion would become stuttery (even with VSync, and even on a CRT, etc.)
Thanks again for the G-sync explanation. The Universe is once again sane.
I'll use framecap software with the monitor I'm buying tomorrow. Only a few hours to dial in the final Science for the buy
@Falkentyne: Right. I just tested my favorite game, and it does a pretty constant 71-73 FPS.
It seems that the penultimate monitor would be a 2720Z with G-Sync. Is there such a monitor? I've really, really looked for one
The 2730Z would have been it until I found out it doesn't do the strobing at lower Hz. The 2735 is slightly better but still not as good as 2720Z. We have arrived at the same conclusions.
So unless there is one, is a 27" 144Hz G-sync, ULMB monitor generally just as good as a 2720Z if it had G-Sync?
Alternatively, for the 71 FPS game I mentioned, will Vsync off have tearing but no stutter @ the nearest higher Hz (85 Hz), and have excellent blur reduction on the 2720Z? Because I'm still quite fond of it for being sort of a "flagship" of the time.
But if I should take the information here at face value, 71 isn't close enough to 85 or 42.5, so that I would need G-sync to combat the stutter, and then I lose the blur reduction.
I could run it at 60Hz/60FPS, VSync off as I do today and get the best blur reduction monitor, which is the 2720Z. Right?
Just trying to get my head around the use case for G-Sync, if I decide that 60 FPS is the lowest performance I will accept, and will upgrade the rig if a game comes along that's so heavy it doesn't give me 60. Losing blur reduction is such a big trade-off since it's the only problem I have really with the monitor I have.
Thanks again for the G-sync explanation. The Universe is once again sane.
I'll use framecap software with the monitor I'm buying tomorrow. Only a few hours to dial in the final Science for the buy
@Falkentyne: Right. I just tested my favorite game, and it does a pretty constant 71-73 FPS.
It seems that the penultimate monitor would be a 2720Z with G-Sync. Is there such a monitor? I've really, really looked for one
The 2730Z would have been it until I found out it doesn't do the strobing at lower Hz. The 2735 is slightly better but still not as good as 2720Z. We have arrived at the same conclusions.
So unless there is one, is a 27" 144Hz G-sync, ULMB monitor generally just as good as a 2720Z if it had G-Sync?
Alternatively, for the 71 FPS game I mentioned, will Vsync off have tearing but no stutter @ the nearest higher Hz (85 Hz), and have excellent blur reduction on the 2720Z? Because I'm still quite fond of it for being sort of a "flagship" of the time.
But if I should take the information here at face value, 71 isn't close enough to 85 or 42.5, so that I would need G-sync to combat the stutter, and then I lose the blur reduction.
I could run it at 60Hz/60FPS, VSync off as I do today and get the best blur reduction monitor, which is the 2720Z. Right?
Just trying to get my head around the use case for G-Sync, if I decide that 60 FPS is the lowest performance I will accept, and will upgrade the rig if a game comes along that's so heavy it doesn't give me 60. Losing blur reduction is such a big trade-off since it's the only problem I have really with the monitor I have.
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Falkentyne
- Posts: 2795
- Joined: 26 Mar 2014, 07:23
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
Best overall blur reduction monitor without any adaptive sync tech is probably the XL2720Z, as you can use blur reduction and VT tweaks at almost all refresh rates in 1 hz increments, starting at 60hz, but you do pay for it in terms of having to deal with ghosting. But you can exploit a firmware bug to make the ghosting with blur reduction OFF to be perfect, instead of atrocious (default). The XL2720Z with a VT 1500 tweak applied has about as much strobe crosstalk (percentage of crosstalk affecting the screen) as a ULMB based monitor (ULMB has some sort of accelerated scanout similar to Lightboost), and equal in percentage to an XL2735 1440p monitor with a VT 1825 tweak.
24" Lightboost mode monitors have the least ghosting. ULMB is basically 2nd. FG2421's blur reduction had virtually no ghosting, but it did strange strobes and added input lag.
ULMB monitors can strobe at 85hz, 100hz and 120hz, which are defined presets. XL2720Z (as well as XL2420Z/11z/2430T) can single strobe lower than 100hz with the single strobe service menu override switch, down to 60hz. 85hz is not a preset refresh rate but the monitor does correctly identify 85hz via a custom resolution with a default VT applied (VT 1124). 85hz will accept VT tweaks but only VT 1501 works properly in the high "Lightboost range of reduced blanking" (VT 1497-VT 1502). The monitor will report 60hz when any VT is used outside of range of default defined refresh rate presets. This reporting issue only affects strobe pulse widths which revert to 0.167ms (16.7 ms divided by 100) with a VT tweak. XL2430T and XL2735 may have fixed this behavior.
24" Lightboost mode monitors have the least ghosting. ULMB is basically 2nd. FG2421's blur reduction had virtually no ghosting, but it did strange strobes and added input lag.
ULMB monitors can strobe at 85hz, 100hz and 120hz, which are defined presets. XL2720Z (as well as XL2420Z/11z/2430T) can single strobe lower than 100hz with the single strobe service menu override switch, down to 60hz. 85hz is not a preset refresh rate but the monitor does correctly identify 85hz via a custom resolution with a default VT applied (VT 1124). 85hz will accept VT tweaks but only VT 1501 works properly in the high "Lightboost range of reduced blanking" (VT 1497-VT 1502). The monitor will report 60hz when any VT is used outside of range of default defined refresh rate presets. This reporting issue only affects strobe pulse widths which revert to 0.167ms (16.7 ms divided by 100) with a VT tweak. XL2430T and XL2735 may have fixed this behavior.
Re: Does blur reduction remove blur if FPS < Hz??
What you think about blur reduction tech used at Samsung C24FG70 at 144hz mode?Falkentyne wrote:Best overall blur reduction monitor without any adaptive sync tech is probably the XL2720Z