high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11653
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: high fps input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Dec 2013, 20:11

You are probably aware of the G-SYNC preview that I've written already --
There's an additional picture that I have (an older version of what NVIDIA had).

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here they are:

G-SYNC working normally with no delayed frames
Image

G-SYNC situation where a frame rendered too fast, creating input lag
Image
Since "Scan" is always 1/144sec (~7ms) on a G-SYNC monitor, the input lag appears to be half a scan delay (~4ms) for that specific third frame. G-SYNC never interrupts scans, in order to avoid tearing. So G-SYNC behaves like VSYNC ON (only one buffer layer) whenever the framerate caps out.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

flood
Posts: 929
Joined: 21 Dec 2013, 01:25

Re: high fps input lag

Post by flood » 23 Dec 2013, 20:15

so is it ever possible to have tearing with gsync?

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11653
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: high fps input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 24 Dec 2013, 20:24

flood wrote:so is it ever possible to have tearing with gsync?
No -- not in its current implementation.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
shadman
Posts: 95
Joined: 19 Dec 2013, 16:39
Location: West Coast

Re: high fps input lag

Post by shadman » 25 Dec 2013, 09:06

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
flood wrote:so is it ever possible to have tearing with gsync?
No -- not in its current implementation.
Thats not to say, there is an effect that most people don't really get on their monitors today. When the framerate drops down, the G-Sync lets the monitor refresh at the framerate level, keeping it tear free...but you do start seeing the game as a fast slideshow, just better than ever. Of course, to really bust the blur(har har) we need to keep the framerate as high as possible, but most people don't realize that about G-Sync, and its not mentioned much.

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11653
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: high fps input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Dec 2013, 13:48

shadman wrote:...but you do start seeing the game as a fast slideshow, just better than ever.
Only at lower frame rates.
GSYNC 60fps looks the same as 60fps@60Hz
GSYNC 75fps looks the same as 75fps@75Hz
GSYNC 120fps look the same as 120fps@120Hz

It always looks perfectly synchronized to refresh rate (like a perfect VSYNC ON except without the input lag disadvantage, when running 30fps-144fps). Even as the framerate varies (www.testufo.com/stutter#demo=gsync) where the framerate goes up and down, there's no erratic stutter during frame rate transitions. For me, that's the most impressive behavior of GSYNC -- the ability of GSYNC to suddenly go from 50fps, 60fps, 70fps, 80fps, 90fps, like turning from the floor to complex scenery -- it looks like it's perfectly smooth. (You still have the standard motion blur, but the framerate-transition stutters are gone)

Image
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
shadman
Posts: 95
Joined: 19 Dec 2013, 16:39
Location: West Coast

Re: high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Post by shadman » 27 Dec 2013, 04:04

Sorry, I should have mentioned that yes, when it does run at lower framerates. And it is absolutely a fabulous technology I am behind. I can't believe its already been two months since I last saw it. And it will be way too long before I get it on my Catleap ;)

Q83Ia7ta
Posts: 761
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 09:29

Re: high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 03 Jan 2014, 18:19

What about center and bottom of the screen? If understand right with vsync off bottom of the screen will have more "input lag" than the top?

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11653
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Jan 2014, 19:20

Q83Ia7ta wrote:What about center and bottom of the screen? If understand right with vsync off bottom of the screen will have more "input lag" than the top?
Explaining input lag of different parts of the screen during VSYNC OFF is kind of complicated, due to a lot of variables.

Generally speaking,
- Whether VSYNC ON, VSYNC OFF, or GSYNC -- all monitors are still doing top-to-bottom scanning (as seen in high speed video)
- During VSYNC ON and VSYNC OFF, the timing of the scans are synchronous (e.g. exactly 60 times a second, 1/60sec apart)
- During GSYNC, the timing of the scans are asynchronous (e.g. occurs when the GPU finishes rendering a frame)
- During all modes, the amount of time a scan takes place is constant (e.g. scans occurs from top-to-bottom at constant velocity)
- During VSYNC OFF, the input lag above the tearline is always higher than the input lag below the tearline. This skews the timings a bit.
- During strobing, you've got all-at-once presentation (regardless of the monitor mode, VSYNC ON or VSYNC OFF) because the monitor was scanned in the dark but then flashed all at once. This can skew the time-basis of the presentation timing of the slices of refreshes during VSYNC OFF. (This can affect responsiveness)

During a theoretical infinite framerate VSYNC OFF on an instant-response monitor (e.g. CRT), you're always real-time at the position of the scan line, you've eliminated tearing, and you've got minimum possible input lag by having the freshest possible input. You still only get a discrete number of samples per second for each pixel, but whenever that pixel is displayed, its input lag would be very fresh.

Now, if you're running at 240fps at 120Hz, let's say you've got a tearline in exactly the middle of the screen. Let's assume the game does input reads everytime it renders a new frame (not all do, but this creates the best-case scenario for any given frame rate). So you've got half of a previous frame displayed in the top half of your monitor refresh and half of the subsequent frame displayed in the bottom half of your monitor refresh. For a real-time zero-buffered display, you've got the same amount of average input lag for the top half, and for the bottom half, because the top half was displayed (scanned out) slightly earlier to your eyes, and the bottom half was displayed (scanned out) slightly later to your eyes. So this results in the top half and bottom half having the same input lag. But let's measure WITHIN the slices. Within the top half, you've got less input lag for the bottom part of the top half (the image right above the tearline). And within the bottom half, you've got less input lag for the bottom part of the bottom half (the image right above the bottom edge of the screen). Confused yet? It gets more complicated. Tearlines varies all the time in positions, you might have two in a refresh. It's even harder to explain/measure input latency in these situations.

Explaining all of this very well, requires a very well-written article, which Blur Busters plans to do after all the important monitor reviews are done. But I will be happy to dive into small morsels at a time (even these takes a lot of explaining).

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here is one I've created just now:

Image

In real life, the tearlines will be all over the place, as 240fps often won't be perfectly synchronized with 120fps. However, this simplified diagram gives you a taste of the complexity of input lag during VSYNC OFF situations. There are other variables left out, such as excluding cable lag and pixel transition lag, but this gives the correct general idea, and also additionally, helps explains why input lag continues to go down even as framerates go higher and higher above your refresh rate.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
RealNC
Site Admin
Posts: 3757
Joined: 24 Dec 2013, 18:32
Contact:

Re: high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Post by RealNC » 03 Jan 2014, 22:12

flood wrote:Actually thinking about it a bit, I don't think gsync would help at all for games that run with high fps. In the ideal world games would run at 300fps and have properly implemented triple buffering... but I've yet to see anything that has triple buffering. until then Im going to stick with vsync off and live with a bit of tearing
With G-Sync, you would set a framerate target of whatever the vertical sync rate of the monitor is (144FPS for 144Hz monitors.) This is done through the internal frame limiter in the driver, which is controlled by stuff like EVGA Precision, MSI Afterburner or NVidia Inspector. That way, you'll never get input lag.

Actually, I'm surprised that NVidia doesn't do that by default when you enable G-Sync. (Or does it? Did you test that, Chief?)
SteamGitHubStack Overflow
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.

Q83Ia7ta
Posts: 761
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 09:29

Re: high fps input lag [if GSYNC caps out?]

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 03 Jan 2014, 22:24

So if compare for example monitor Asus VG248QE at 144hz, game QuakeLive at maximum fps 250, we will have:
GSYNC: Monitor's input lag + 2.9ms input lag by GSYNC;
LIghtBoost: Monitor's input lag + ~4ms input lag by LIghtBoost;
VSYNC OFF: Monitor's input lag.
Right?

Will Asus VG248QE with GSYNC module will have less input lag when GSYNC and VSYNC are off?
Last edited by Q83Ia7ta on 03 Jan 2014, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply