Blur Busters Forums

Who you gonna call? The Blur Busters! For Everything Better Than 60Hz™ Skip to content

[Overcoming LCD limitations] Big rant about LCD's & 120Hz BS

Advanced display talk, display hackers, advanced game programmers, scientists, display researchers, display manufacturers, vision researchers. The masters on Blur Busters.

Re: [Overcoming LCD limitations] Big rant about LCD's & 120H

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 12 Aug 2017, 13:47

thatoneguy wrote:I still stick by my theory that if we can achieve a lower image persistence than the human eye can perceive(say for example 1 nanosecond) the multiple image effect will be eliminated at any refresh/framerate combo.

It's actually pretty close, but not identical.

Persistence affects eye-tracking.
Multi image affects non-eye-tracking (stationary gaze).

-- Imagine a theoretical robot arm moving a theoretical 1,000,000 Hz mouse.
-- Imagine the robot arm moves the mouse really, really, really fast -- like 1,000,000 pixels per second.
-- You do a fixed gaze.
-- On a theoretical 100,000 Hz (100KHz) refresh rate display -- the mouse arrow steps would be 10 pixels apart (1,000,000 / 100,000 = 10)
-- That said, with the refresh cycles only 1/100,000sec you will need a huge number of nits (e.g. 10,000 nits or 100,000 nits) for white pixels) in order for the 100KHz phantom array effect to be really visible
-- Indeed, such a display would be too blindingly bright (even if only the mouse arrow pointer was that insanely bright).

(Note: An infinitesimally short flash is visible to the human eye, given sufficient photons. For example, a 1 microsecond flash is visible to human eye if it's 1000 times brighter than an equivalent 1 millisecond flash. Same number of photons. Equally "instantaneous looking" to human eye. But both are still visible.)

The solution to make both equal is:
(A) Enough hertz to solve phantom array effect for movements matching maximum human eye-tracking speed
This fixes eye tracking situation
(B) Add GPU motion blur between refresh cycles to eliminate the phantom array effect
This fixes stationary gaze situation

Doing (B) will slightly interact with (A), so you might need to go to a 2x factor above maximum to simultaneously satisfy (A) and (B). Basically X,XXX Hz with GPU-added motion blur of 1/X,XXXth second between all adjacent refresh cycles.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter!
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44

Re: [Overcoming LCD limitations] Big rant about LCD's & 120H

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 12 Aug 2017, 13:57

Also good new TestUFO animation, relevant to subject: http://www.testufo.com/displaymotionblur

1. Look at the stationary UFO. Observe vertical lines.
2. Look at the moving UFO. Observe that an image appears (easier to see on sample-and-hold displays; LCDs or OLEDs, not CRT)

Please turn off Blur Reduction / strobing / ULMB / LightBoost for this animation
For best results, use a desktop display, rather than a mobile display



Doubling your refresh rate will double the clarity of this image (twice the horizontal resolution).

The image never becomes fully sharp/clear until you reach a Hz equalling pixels per second. For 960 pixels per second, you need a true 960 Hz display (CRT, LCD, OLED) for http://www.testufo.com/displaymotionblur to match the clarity of http://www.testufo.com/photo

Blur Reduction (CRT impulsing, LCD strobing, OLED rolling scan) is ultimately only a very good band-aid in the humankind invention of static images to represent moving mages. Long term (in a decade, in a century, wide-FOV monitors, VR, Holodeck, etc) we need framerateless displays or ultra-high-Hz displays.

This new TestUFO animation [First time ever done on a computer screen, AFAIK] is also based on well-known optical principles that spinning LED bike wheels and old-fashioned 1920s/1930s mechanical televisions (Nipikow wheels), which used a single flashing neon or flashing LED running at thousands of Hertz to generate an image. More information I've posted about this funky new TestUFO test. What this means, is flashing a pixel faster, can actually increase resolution of effects like these. This is relevant to occlusion effects in real life.

Real world applications of ever-higher-Hz: Rapid occulsion effects. Picket fences. Cracks through doors. Etc. Playing FPS games while looking through dense bush or cracks or fence slats. Or trying to peek through a very tiny crack in a door in a FPS game (millimeter-league cracks that are only a single or two pixels on screen) via turn/strafing left-right to "rapidly scan through the crack". (Admit it, you might even scan-peek through the crack of a bathroom stall door sometimes to check if a toilet stall is occupied!). In real FPS games the cracks are much bigger but let's assume a much tinier crack that are only a few pixels wide, and you're wanting to "scan" faster. The rapid occulsion-deocculsion effects look better the higher the refresh rate you go. This is increasingly important the closer in humankind, that we try to approach Holodeck realism during virtual reality situations. Fixing occulsion-effects limitations fully will require multi-thousand-Hertz to make things look analog-motion even in these types of occlusion scenarios (which are not interpolatable), and pass the "Holodeck Turing Test" in the "Wow, I didn't know I was wearing a VR headset instead of wearing a transparent ski goggles" type of blind-testing that would definitely require ultrahigh-Hz retina-resolution headsets... While it's nitpicking right now, it still underscores the need for ultra-high-Hz to approach Holodeck-quality analog motion with no visible side effects...

I invented this TestUFO pattern in part because of this thread. More TestUFO demonstrations are on their way to scientifically demonstrate how higher Hertz still improve various specific kinds of image effects.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter!
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44

Re: [Overcoming LCD limitations] Big rant about LCD's & 120H

Postby thatoneguy » Yesterday, 23:44

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Long term (in a decade, in a century, wide-FOV monitors, VR, Holodeck, etc) we need framerateless displays or ultra-high-Hz displays.


Personally I think the key to achieving this is getting to low enough persistence that humans can't detect. I think the end goal for display technology(whether that'd be TV's, Monitors, VR etc.) is completely fooling the human eyes and making it impossible for them to distinguish display footage from reality. For that we need lower persistence than the human eye can detect.

I think it will probably come in the form of extremely high refresh rate displays(10000hz or 100000hz to combat brightness loss) with extremely low persistence(nanosecond or picosecond-tier persistence) and extremely high brightness(possibly 100000 nits).

As for framerateless displays I still can't wrap my head around them :lol: :lol: :lol:
thatoneguy
 
Posts: 38
Joined: 06 Aug 2015, 17:16

Previous

Return to Area 51: Display Science, Research & Engineering

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest