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You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby erobuR » 08 Nov 2017, 22:04

I would like to say that it is an honor for me that Chief Blur Buster got interested in this thread.
For the last days I have been having a medical problem, therefore I could not answer. I will check what has been written here as soon as possible and reply.

Dear Lexlazootin,
Occam's razor should also tell you that an inexperienced gamer would open this thread to tomshardware, not here. I do know what is v-sync, g-sync, tearing etc. My problem is much more deeper than that. Maybe it will help you a bit if you will see my following steam account: http://steamcommunity.com/id/erobur

I would like to add following things before I reply tomorrow to your responds:
1- My electrical guitar (Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster) and its amp (also Fender a good one) has thrashy sound in my house. A sound effect like phaser is always on even though no pedals are connected. The frequency of the notes I play variates. I do not have good sustain.

2- I try to record what happens on my screen but I simply cannot. There are no visible wavings when idle. Terrain, especially terrain waves when moved, textures are waving, it is a vertical wave and tearing occurs really slowly so it is also visible. It all comes with humangous amount of input lag.

3- My mouse movement is corrupted. It literally feels like as if when i move it from left to right, someone is pushing it from right to left. The cursor stops in miliseconds. That's why 1600 dpi feels like 900-1000.

4- Closing shader cache and taking physx out of GPU and giving the task to CPU helps a lot. But again, I beg you to consider that this is not just a visual problem I am having, but this is happening in all parts of my systems I have had. Even when I type on browser, the typing is sometimes smooth and sometimes not, too.

5- About WASD and truck feeling thing, i know what is a keyboard debounce because I currently have Cherry Mx Red, Mx Blue and Logitech G-Romer switch keyboards, there is no difference.

6- About Interleaving and error correction: Well i generally have low CRC errors, my interleaving is on Fast Path by my ISP, and I have the fastest internet package in my country right now which is 100mbits, and i am able to get 100mbit download. My interleave depth is 1. I don't know what i can check here furthermore, please guide me.

7- Now to the craziest part. The more i move my cables, the more the feeling changes. How I route my PSU cable, monitor power cable, and other cables (even main vdsl cable) effects the feeling in a good or bad way. It is pretty much noticable because it feels like as if i move the dpi slider on mouse software.

I will post a huge reply tomorrow. Even to the ones who doubt me, thank you to blurbusters community for being interested in this problem. I cannot move or sell the house so I need to fix this, somehow.
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby mello » 09 Nov 2017, 04:15

erobuR wrote:6- About Interleaving and error correction: Well i generally have low CRC errors, my interleaving is on Fast Path by my ISP, and I have the fastest internet package in my country right now which is 100mbits, and i am able to get 100mbit download. My interleave depth is 1. I don't know what i can check here furthermore, please guide me.


This is very intersting. Didn't know that you can still be on fast path while having 100mbits.
But this brings up a question about what you said earlier:

erobuR wrote:My competitive ping is around 60ms. Domestic servers in my country feel better by far.


If you are on fast path, you should have much lower ping than 60ms. Are you playing on servers that are in countries that are far away from where you live ? What is your lowest ping on domestic servers ? You do understand that if your domestic servers "feel better" than it is still a networking issue, right ? I assume that you don't experience packet loss when gaming feels worse than usual ? Slight problems with packet loss may show up as missing sounds in games. How long is your line ? (to the closest dslam / your isps central).

Also, to better understand what might be going on, i just want to let you know that internet speed is not important when it comes to gaming. You don't need much bandwidth for gaming packets. While being on fast path you should have best gaming experience ever with lowest ping times, the only exception being when your connection might not be suitable for fast path, but it looks like it is not the case here, but still your ping looks suspicious. Can you ask your ISP if there are changes to the network parameters being done ? What i mean is for example, during peak hours, to prevent issues when lines are being overloaded. Or how they handle and prioritize UDP packets on their side during the day (injecting artificial delays for example).

erobuR wrote:1- My electrical guitar (Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster) and its amp (also Fender a good one) has thrashy sound in my house. A sound effect like phaser is always on even though no pedals are connected. The frequency of the notes I play variates. I do not have good sustain.


If it is an outside interference (related to electricity), then all electronic products would be affect in some way or the other, you would definitely notice it and you would most likely get more failure rates. Do you live in a isolated area or in an industrial area ? What are possible outside interferences in your area ? What has changed in 2010 ? Some new buildings and companies in a area ?

You do undestand that if it is in fact a problem related to electricy, you wouldn't be the only person that is affected by that, right ? What about internet forums, other players from your country. Has anyone reported anything similar to what you are experiencing ?

Other troubleshoting ideas. If the problem started in 2010 it has been 7 years now. Take your PC for a weekend to one of your friends house and see if the problem is still there. Go and play from one of the internet cafes (cybercafe) in your city and see how it feels. Try playing on a laptop from a different place (not your home).

erobuR wrote:2- I try to record what happens on my screen but I simply cannot. There are no visible wavings when idle. Terrain, especially terrain waves when moved, textures are waving, it is a vertical wave and tearing occurs really slowly so it is also visible. It all comes with humangous amount of input lag.


As i said before, networking issues do to overloaded lines might make you feel like you are experiencing some kind of a lag, most people quickly jump on "input lag" problem, by quickly dismissing a networking issue because their ping does not change. Same thing with motion blur/tearing, you might convince yourself that this is a problem (it might seem amplified when gaming doesn't feel right), because of issues when peeking corners (among other things, including hit registration), or you die instantly (like you said) when you do actually see other players. This is still a networking problem, and it happens because UDP packets are delivered out of order or they are already outdated when they reach you or the server. When you have networking problems you can also feel that your reaction time is shortened (in a negative way), in a sense that you have less time to react to what other players are doing/seeing (because they see you first). When the problem disappears or things feel much better, then you can clearly see an immediate improvment when peeking corners and in your reaction time (you feel like you have suddently better reflexes, but in reality it is because you now have more time to react to things that show up properly on your screen).

erobuR wrote:3- My mouse movement is corrupted. It literally feels like as if when i move it from left to right, someone is pushing it from right to left. The cursor stops in miliseconds. That's why 1600 dpi feels like 900-1000.


Lower the DPI, lower mouse hz, increase the in game sensitivity to match what is best for you. See what happens. Check what DPC Latency Checker / LatencyMon is showing. It definelty looks like some kind of a lag, but still, mouse movement aka non smooth aiming might be caused by network performance fluctuations but i have never seen (at least to this degree) something like you are describing. It literally looks like an input lag problem on your side, but it can't be if it fluctuates (sometimes feels good and sometimes bad).

erobuR wrote:4- Closing shader cache and taking physx out of GPU and giving the task to CPU helps a lot. But again, I beg you to consider that this is not just a visual problem I am having, but this is happening in all parts of my systems I have had. Even when I type on browser, the typing is sometimes smooth and sometimes not, too.


Take your PC for a weekend to one of your friends house and see if the problem is still there. Go and play from one of the internet cafes (cybercafe) in your city and see how it feels. Try playing on a laptop, both from your home and from a different place, see how it feels.

erobuR wrote:7- Now to the craziest part. The more i move my cables, the more the feeling changes. How I route my PSU cable, monitor power cable, and other cables (even main vdsl cable) effects the feeling in a good or bad way. It is pretty much noticable because it feels like as if i move the dpi slider on mouse software.


Might be a placebo do to network performance fluctuations. I have been there before and i perfectly understand what you are saying, but sadly it might be highly misleading. You still need to take your PC to a different place and test it, either your friends house or an internet cafe for a night. Try playing on a laptop both from your house and from other place, see what happens both visually and in the game (performance wise).
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby mello » 09 Nov 2017, 07:12

Chief Blur Buster wrote:I have seen situations where everybody here is correct (lexlazootin, mello, and me) for a given situation.

There's been 100% placebo before.
There's been incorrect diagnoses.
There's been lots who are "hypochondriac for their computers" (for good or bad)
There's been lots of genuine researchers who are actually open-mindedly analyzing all of this (finding 95% placebo, 5% surprises) (that's me)
There's been actual measured differences (high speed camera or other lag tests) because of weird computer problems (including power)


You are entirely correct, everyones opinion comes from their own knowledge and experiences. And do to limited information, and an inability for us to see, feel and experience the problem in person, we can only speculate. But there is something going on, and it is possible to identify the problem and find a solution, and someone is more correct or at least closer to the truth than others. And i very much enjoy a healthy conversation (even when i might be wrong, in which situation i see no problem admitting it), because in the end we can also educate ourselves on other possibilities and scenarios.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:There's a lot of things exacerbated by incorrect attempts to fix the problem but that multiple root problems still exists.
There's been pure software problems misunderstood as hardware problems.


I am perfectly aware of that, and this is why i also recommend doing some unconvetional things, especially when the problem persist for years. For example this:

"Take your PC for a weekend to one of your friends house and see if the problem is still there. Go and play from one of the internet cafes (cybercafe) in your city and see how it feels. Try playing on a laptop, both from your home and from a different place, see how it feels."

Doing that might take care of vast majority or things you mentioned, and bring us closer to finding what the real problem is. Same with checking DPC latency, assuming there are no hardware issuses, there might be a software/driver issue, which is not out of realm of possibility (have seen that before). The only problem with this is that he is experiencing a huge variance in game performance and strange "input lag" like spikes. This still raises a red flag for me, because hardware and software problems are generally persistent in nature, they don't magically go away and disappear, just to show up randomly and haunt the PC user and make his life miserable.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Sometimes a solution is amazingly unexpected.


And in the same fashion, some solutions are being completely overlooked and disregarded from the start. For example:

"As i said before, networking issues do to overloaded lines might make you feel like you are experiencing some kind of a lag, most people quickly jump on "input lag" problem, by quickly dismissing a networking issue because their ping does not change. Same thing with motion blur/tearing, you might convince yourself that this is a problem (it might seem amplified when gaming doesn't feel right), because of issues when peeking corners (among other things, including hit registration), or you die instantly (like you said) when you do actually see other players. This is still a networking problem, and it happens because UDP packets are delivered out of order or they are already outdated when they reach you or the server. When you have networking problems you can also feel that your reaction time is shortened (in a negative way), in a sense that you have less time to react to what other players are doing/seeing (because they see you first). When the problem disappears or things feel much better, then you can clearly see an immediate improvment when peeking corners and in your reaction time (you feel like you have suddently better reflexes, but in reality it is because you now have more time to react to things that show up properly on your screen)."

What i am saying here is that some problems might manifest themselves as hardware/software related problems (or feel similar too), especially when we take into consideration a "feeling" aspect of things and the way how our brain works. So in the end someone might be spinning their wheels for years trying to identify the problem, when the problem is right in front of him.

Another possiblity, there is more than one problem in place. And in this kind of situation we can get an overlap of a different performance issues, that are not limited to one single problem, especially when someone is depending on random internet advice, ie: system tips & tricks and other tweaks that are supposed to be a "performance improvements". So when you try to solve a problem, there is a possibility that you might also a create one.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:All of you and me have proved correct before. But all of you (nor me) may even apply very differently to the OP's situation. Right now we also have a case of "it's possible all of us are mostly right simultaneously, or it's possible none of us are right simultaneously". The user might even be unfamiliar, trying to honestly follow misguided advice everywhere on the Internet, with lots of placebos mixed in with a 5% surprise factor. I've seen it happen, whether it be a "TestUFO Stuck at 60Hz" or "That Weird CS:GO Stutter" or an offshoot topic The user is witnessing lots of effects they are potentially/likely unfamiliar with. While, simultaneously, at the same time, other changes to their system is unexpectedly exacerbating things (or potentially being misdiagnosed). *I* can be wrong too. Even I admit that.


True. In this particular case i analyze what user is saying and how he is explaining the problem. This is why i brought up a fact, that it is in game performance issue that is affecting the gameplay and creates a problem (lack of consistency, randomness, sometimes it feels good, sometimes bad, at times it is worse than the other time). So the real problem that forced him to try and search for fixes and solutions (and to start this topic here and possibly in other places) is the end result (same as with other cases), peoples stats, winrate, k/d ratio, in game situations are being affected (when and how you are being killed and when you are unable to kill the other player), and the overall feeling of the game and performance is affected. It is not necessarily a problem in what he sees (tearing, motion blur) or in what he feels (stutter like or input lag like symptoms) that is happening. To put it simply and use an overgeneralization, if his in game performance wouldn't be affected to this degree (or at all), he wouldn't mind having tearing, motion blur, stutter like symptoms (or input lag like spikes), he would get used to it because he would still be able to consistenly perform at his best (winning = dopamine release). So essentially why he and other people are searching for solutions is because there is an inconsistency in dopamine release, because he knows exactly when the game feels right or better and when it feels worse or bad, which directly has an impact on his in game results.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
mello wrote:@lexlazootin, the sooner you realize that you are wrong and lack knowledge and experience in this area, the better.

mello, let's spin this into more positive debate, please.

Good stuff is being said, but this tone of writing do not belong on Blur Busters, the site that pushes boundaries of disbelief (30fps-vs-60fps! strobing! 1000Hz! Human eyes can't see the difference! Etc.)

Ideally, I'd rather not see things escalate any further into negativity.
So, please. Open mind, pretty please? ;)

Okay? Thank you...


I just don't like that kind of tone that he used, thats all. And lexlazootin and RealNC has done that before (making fun of what someome is saying, using words like bullshit, stupid, etc.), completely disregarding the complexity of things, trying to make things plain and simple, when nothing in this world is simple. Same thing for "studies" and "where is the proof" questions. They need to realize that at some point in time there wasn't proof or studies for anything in our lives... until there actually was.

Networking is a very complex thing (even more than most people realize), reported bandwidth and reported latency are not only things that matter. And you can't measure the network performance (in relation to gaming results) that will show up to you as a score, not in the same way as you can test a CPU, GPU, RAM, monitor (response times / input lag), that in the end of the test the results will show up to you as a number. You also can't isolate the internet for your tests, because thousands of people are using it at the same time in your area, using the same cables. On the other hand you can isolate the CPU, GPU, RAM, monitor and make an objective test because no one is using it except you. As for an outside interferences, there are none affecting your hardware tests and the tests will be consistent after several runs (or at least with very minor differences), and basically anyone can do it. Internet performance (in relation to gaming) can be incosistent and unpredictable do to network performance fluctuations (load and usage is constanly changing), so doing an isolated "study" would be also very hard to do. On top of that you have line parameters that are also constantly changing based on network usage, and this is why people might experience a huge variance in their in online performance, just because sometimes they are being bottlenecked and the other times they are not. And because of all these factors, how the gaming "feels like" is the only thing that people have, when they are experiencing the problems with their online gaming. They have an experience with these inconsistencies and fluctuations and they know when it feels good and when it feels worse, but somehow they fail to put two and two together and identify the network as the culprit. On the other hand, when you will identify the network as a culprit, there is no fix, solution or workaround it, which it definitely not what people want to hear.
Last edited by mello on 09 Nov 2017, 09:12, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby lexlazootin » 09 Nov 2017, 07:15

I think you should try hard to put exactly what the problem is into words, randomly trying to solve the vague problem with guesses isn't the best way to do things.

If you have a single problem we can aim at it might be a lot more effective finding a solution.
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 09 Nov 2017, 10:59

Everyone has their own different approaches to a problem. And I have indeed occasionally set moderators to avoid representing opinion as fact (e.g. "I don't believe in that" or "240hz is useless" or blanket statements).

I do, however, "read deeper" (sometimes surprisingly stubbornly) into specific kinds of challenges and problems. This leads to new discoveries that we have done that few others. Like finding frameskipping workarounds, creating motion tests that demonstrates distinct display behaviors, covering the distinct "input-lag-jitter versus absolute-input-lag" factors, studying strobe crosstalk behaviors, etc.

Hopefully some of the new POVs in these forums have bumped the OP to attempting a brand new troubleshooting path that might solve their problem.

I particularly thank Glide for his educational animation -- it very clearly demonstrates concepts Blur Busters is very familiar with but that I may initially have overlooked in the OP too.

Now in response to the OP....

erobuR wrote:1- My electrical guitar (Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster) and its amp (also Fender a good one) has thrashy sound in my house. A sound effect like phaser is always on even though no pedals are connected. The frequency of the notes I play variates. I do not have good sustain.

<Longshot Alert>
Malfunctions in other equipment is also possible additional evidence of electrical problems in your wiring, such as unusually intense RFI.

Personal story: I'm a born deafie (old FAQ from very old website) that wears a hearing aid, and it has a T-coil switch. Normally it picks up sounds from telephone headsets via picking up the magnetic field from the telephone's speaker. Occasionally I accidentally leave it on and then walk past a big high-voltage electrical cabinet out in the public, creating a loud unexpected buzz into my ear. Now I've walked into some people's houses and once a year, my ears hurt with a loud buzz even 10 feet away from the walls. So definitely, some major-league RFI exists inside a house for some weird reason....less than 1% of the time. But it happens. it takes a lot of intense magnetic fields/RFI for that to happen. That's going to do some crazy [bleep] to audio, and by corollary, randomly wreak havoc on digital signals. This may not be affecting erobuR's computer, but it's meritworthy of a mention in case it's a longshot Rube Goldberg trigger to other semi-unrelated problems in the system.

In one situation, back in my student days, my hearing aid's T-coil alerted me to a hydro transformer mounted to the exterior wall behind my apartment. That sort of location only 2 feet away from a hydro-pole transformer (approx ~10 kilovolt), with intense magnetic fields, is definitely not going to be good to park a computer desk!


erobuR wrote:2- I try to record what happens on my screen but I simply cannot. There are no visible wavings when idle. Terrain, especially terrain waves when moved, textures are waving, it is a vertical wave and tearing occurs really slowly so it is also visible. It all comes with humangous amount of input lag.

I am now more inclined to believe that this is a completely independent factor than the other problems, so I'm going to focus on the other troubleshooting. If the other problems solve, then I hope that this issue is fixed. So, let's focus on "problems closer to cause" first.

erobuR wrote:3- My mouse movement is corrupted.

Probably a cause-and-effect of other problems.
Longshot: Interference on USB cable creating random lag

erobuR wrote:Even when I type on browser, the typing is sometimes smooth and sometimes not, too.

Probably a cause-and-effect of other problems, such as hardware/software.
Longshot: Interference on USB cable creating random lag

erobuR wrote:and I have the fastest internet package in my country right now which is 100mbits, and i am able to get 100mbit download.

Single-link or 4-wire MLPPP? The latter adds lots more latency variability issues, but is probably a third/fourth unrelated problem in what is likely a multilayered-problem situation (and still multilayered even if power problems is unrelated).

erobuR wrote:7- Now to the craziest part. The more i move my cables, the more the feeling changes.

More evidence to not 100% rule-out potentially intense RFI.

While I agree with many readers that this is a longshot scenario, I know that there are computers that behave weirdly with power problems before they crash. Display cables (ruled out), USB cables (possible), SATA cables (possible), etc, all can begin to weird-out without crashes in an "intense-RFI" situation.

While I agree this is long-shot, I'm inclined to at least attempt to ask you to test power.

1. Temporarily move the computer to a new location. See what happens. Just like my experience as a student (see above) of a huge power-company hydro-transformer behind the wall...... Temporarily relocate all your computer away from the wall. Briefly move your computer desk to the MIDDLE of the room. Or even a totally different room, or temporarily to a school's computer lab. Just as a test. Use an extension cord to power your computer, if necessary. Does all the weird problems disappear?

2. Purchase a cheap magnetic/RFI/field detector (Amazon, eBay, etc). If you're using a purchased interference detector -- test your device against an ordinary cable carrying average currents like a toaster toasting some slices. That's your baseline RFI. Now measure the air behind your computer, half a meter away from your computer. It's probably higher. But if it's like 100x-1000x stronger field (it happens) than a toaster -- then you might have a problem, and you don't want to store magnetic media (floppy disks/creditcards/HDD) in that airspace. ;)

Alternative: Or find a friend with a hearing aid with a T-switch for telephone headsets. The T-coil is a fun shoestring "magnetic-fields" detector, even on cheap sub-$100 hearing aids. If a hearing aid's T-coil still buzzes loudly in mid-air a full meter away from everything, that's the sign of an unusually intense magnetic field. As a born-deafie myself, get someone wearing a "T-coil" to walk into the middle room and listen for the "loud 60Hz buzz" or "loud random buzz" characteristic of unusually intense magnetic field. It's normal to hear a loud buzz with an ear (with T-coil) pressed against a light switch or a computer or a power wire, but typically abnormal to hear a loud buzz from one meter or more away.

That's the sign of an unusually super-strong magnetic field (like a hydro transformer or a 10-kilovolt cable mounted to the exterior wall behind your computer desk). That's fields strong enough to be risky to a computer to be flush against that wall, mere inches away from that big electrical. (Common sense: Don't put a computer where you wouldn't trust floppies/creditcards/HDD's to be safely stored) It rarely happens but it happens, and it happened to me back in my student days. Fortunately, my computer desk wasn't parked against this wall!

It's probably easier to at least rule-out this "longshot" factor. Your problem is probably caused by other things, but it is easy to rule out, so why not?

The large number of telltale weird signs tell me that it's a civic duty to inform you to at least try the low lying apples (moving a computer temporarily is usually easier than reinstalling an OS or repurchasing equipment) to rule-out a potential long-shot factors. You've sherlock-holmed a lot of stuff in the years, even with fresh reinstalls, so might as well.

Again, this is probably not one of the causes of a heavily multilayered-problem situation, but I'd like to at least rule the theory out.
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby Glide » 09 Nov 2017, 13:30

erobuR wrote:3- My mouse movement is corrupted. It literally feels like as if when i move it from left to right, someone is pushing it from right to left. The cursor stops in miliseconds. That's why 1600 dpi feels like 900-1000.

DPI is easily measured with a ruler.
Don't go by what the mouse "feels like". Measure it.
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Re: You guys are my last hope for fixing my problem

Postby mello » 12 Nov 2017, 07:09

Few more simple ideas for you to try. You can easily rule out the electricy problem, just borrow a laptop, and play from your home. If the same thing happens, it is not because of electricy in your home or country. After that, disconnect everything (except router) from power supply in your home, and try playing again using the laptop. If it feels better or the problem is fixed, something in your home is faulty and is causing a large interfearance with other devices, including your PC. If the problem still persists on a laptop with everything else disconnected, then the problem is either an outside interfearance (from other places, houses, possibly even faulty wiring in your building) or your internet connection (if you did also had hit registration problems, but you never actually clarified that).
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