500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 19 Feb 2018, 12:04

lexlazootin wrote:
sensors do degrade in positional accuracy at higher mouse Hz
what are you talking about? can you give examples?
There are hundreds of ways to statistically measure computer mice, and while many 1000Hz+ mouse metrics are vastly superior, the law of averages still have a (bare) few metrics of 500Hz still outperforming. This was much more true back in the days of the first 1000Hz mice, and there is much fewer reasons to use 500Hz now.

What I find hairpulling, is lobotomizing choice to 500Hz, with zero ability to choose 1000Hz or 2000Hz with their clear superior statistics in other measurement criteria.

There is always sensor "noise" -- even positional reports from a mouse sensor. It is never zero. The longer you average the noise in *anything* for -- like a longer camera exposure -- a longer math averaging -- a longer smarter calculation -- a longer whatever -- etc, etc -- the less noise (error) there is.

Mathematics Point Of View #1: Mouse sensors are often ~16x16 or ~32x32 pixel cameras pointing straight down at a mousemat (often laser-illuminated, red-illuminated or infrared illuminated). It's always oversampled. For a mouse that does, say, 6000 camera reads a second, you get 6 camera reads averaged for 1000Hz, or 20 camera reads averaged at 500Hz. Less aliasing/grainyfeel effects when pushing DPI by turning off acceleration and relying on sheer DPI for fast 1:1 linear movements. More sensor reads averaged means better, smarter and more noise-free averaging. The noise is getting very low now, but the noise is still there in some cases.

Mathematics Point Of View #2: Mouse sensors often exist in 1500 samples per second internally. If the camera reads per second is not evenly divisible, there can also be aliasing issues. Many sensors also have sampling rates that are not even divisors of the mouse poll rates, too. Mouse sensor camera reads at 1500 Hz internally may produce better accuracy at 500Hz (evenly divisible) than at 1000Hz (not evenly divisible). The 6000Hz-sensors will produce better 1000Hz-poll results than 1500Hz-sensors.

Which means while 1000Hz is usually superior, it may be only superior in, say 95% or 98% of mouse-measurement criteria. There could be situations where a paid professional eSports player is adapted to tactics that really depends on those outside-criteria metrics, and I certainly can respect that, even if I myself merrily keep my mice at 1000Hz (or 2000Hz) for the better strobed feel / GSYNC feel / etc.

Choice, you mouse manufacturers, choice!
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by A Solid lad » 19 Feb 2018, 18:46

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
lexlazootin wrote:
sensors do degrade in positional accuracy at higher mouse Hz
what are you talking about? can you give examples?
There are hundreds of ways to statistically measure computer mice, and while many 1000Hz+ mouse metrics are vastly superior, the law of averages still have a (bare) few metrics of 500Hz still outperforming. This was much more true back in the days of the first 1000Hz mice, and there is much fewer reasons to use 500Hz now.

What I find hairpulling, is lobotomizing choice to 500Hz, with zero ability to choose 1000Hz or 2000Hz with their clear superior statistics in other measurement criteria.

There is always sensor "noise" -- even positional reports from a mouse sensor. It is never zero. The longer you average the noise in *anything* for -- like a longer camera exposure -- a longer math averaging -- a longer smarter calculation -- a longer whatever -- etc, etc -- the less noise (error) there is.

Mathematics Point Of View #1: Mouse sensors are often ~16x16 or ~32x32 pixel cameras pointing straight down at a mousemat (often laser-illuminated, red-illuminated or infrared illuminated). It's always oversampled. For a mouse that does, say, 6000 camera reads a second, you get 6 camera reads averaged for 1000Hz, or 20 camera reads averaged at 500Hz. Less aliasing/grainyfeel effects when pushing DPI by turning off acceleration and relying on sheer DPI for fast 1:1 linear movements. More sensor reads averaged means better, smarter and more noise-free averaging. The noise is getting very low now, but the noise is still there in some cases.

Mathematics Point Of View #2: Mouse sensors often exist in 1500 samples per second internally. If the camera reads per second is not evenly divisible, there can also be aliasing issues. Many sensors also have sampling rates that are not even divisors of the mouse poll rates, too. Mouse sensor camera reads at 1500 Hz internally may produce better accuracy at 500Hz (evenly divisible) than at 1000Hz (not evenly divisible). The 6000Hz-sensors will produce better 1000Hz-poll results than 1500Hz-sensors.

Which means while 1000Hz is usually superior, it may be only superior in, say 95% or 98% of mouse-measurement criteria. There could be situations where a paid professional eSports player is adapted to tactics that really depends on those outside-criteria metrics, and I certainly can respect that, even if I myself merrily keep my mice at 1000Hz (or 2000Hz) for the better strobed feel / GSYNC feel / etc.

Choice, you mouse manufacturers, choice!
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by lexlazootin » 20 Feb 2018, 04:06

Chief Blur Buster wrote:6000 camera reads a second, you get 6 camera reads averaged for 1000Hz, or 20 camera reads averaged at 500Hz. Less aliasing/grainyfeel effects when pushing DPI by turning off acceleration and relying on sheer DPI for fast 1:1 linear movements. More sensor reads averaged means better, smarter and more noise-free averaging.
Idk why averages would be more accurate, it sounds like the complete opposite. You could argue the same effect but lower latency would be achieved running a 6khz mouse on a 120hz monitor because every refresh of the monitor would be the average of 50 samples, Thus being the same as lowering the maximum hz of the mouse but of course avoiding beat frequency and latency.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:Mouse sensor camera reads at 1500 Hz internally may produce better accuracy at 500Hz (evenly divisible) than at 1000Hz
Use 1500hz then lol. But seriously, if your mouse is running at 1500fps it's probably to crap to run in any serious environment. Most gaming sensors are 6000fps+ recommending anyone to use 500hz sounds pretty dumb to me.

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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Feb 2018, 16:26

A Solid lad wrote:Are you married yet?
Taken. ;)

But, I need more freelancers to occasionally write for Blur Busters (on almost any "Better Than 60Hz" topics, HFR, VR, strobing, VRR, gaming monitors, advanced display nuances, input lag, etc). One-time or ongoing, depending on subject matter. Blur Busters gets guests articles including Marwan Daar's guest article, Battle(non)sense guest article, and during all of 2017, Jorim regularly writing blog articles and the popular GSYNC 101.

Topic matter is somewhat flexible as long as it touches the needs of "Better Than 60Hz" in a roundabout way. For example, if someone made interesting discoveries (e.g. weird behaviors between two different computer mice that's important for high-Hz), or discovered a new reliable method of reducing input lag, or is a software developer who has tips about reducing input lag in programming, etc, etc. Or if you've got a new high speed camera that you can point at your videogame... Or have extensive experience with a specific frame capping utility? Familiar with emulators/games that have a built-in feature (software-based black frame insertion, frame rate capping, etc) features and want to create a FAQ for it? Etc. As long as it's good content even barely within the venn diagram of Blur Busters, I'm interested! Or if you know others interested in freelancing.

<shameless plug>
Freelance Writers Wanted For Blur Busters!
If you've got at least some media/blog experience and have an article topics you think you can submit, I'm interested. Reimbursment available.
Inquire within at squad[at]blurbusters.com
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Feb 2018, 16:38

lexlazootin wrote:Use 1500hz then lol. But seriously, if your mouse is running at 1500fps it's probably to crap to run in any serious environment. Most gaming sensors are 6000fps+ recommending anyone to use 500hz sounds pretty dumb to me.
Well, there's a 2000Hz-capable Couger mouse that appears to be returning only 1500 position reports a second in this thread.

AFAIK, the USB drivers are not easy to configure to poll at odd rates, so polling at 2000Hz to get all the 1500 positions, may actually end up having less aliasing effects than polling at 1000Hz. However, the aliasing effects may be worse/better at one rate than the other, there are likely pros/cons of configuring a 1500Hz sensor to 500Hz (no poll aliasing), 1000Hz (rough aliasing feel) or 2000Hz (different kind of rough aliasing feel, but lower lag than 500Hz or 1000Hz).

At the end of the day, the user should indeed have a choice.
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by A Solid lad » 25 Feb 2018, 06:43

lexlazootin wrote:Use 1500hz then lol. But seriously, if your mouse is running at 1500fps it's probably to crap to run in any serious environment. Most gaming sensors are 6000fps+ recommending anyone to use 500hz sounds pretty dumb to me.
You're the dumb one here.
You're confusing dpi with polling rate, there's no sensor in any mouse that runs at 6000hz+. (6000fps+, as you called it)
Also, you're not just confusing dpi with polling rate... you're calling dpi "fps", and associating the two things that way just goes to show your ignorance.

You can't even comprehend what other, way more knowledgeable people are talking about, yet you're calling their suggestions dumb... YOU are dumb.
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by lexlazootin » 25 Feb 2018, 11:41

A Solid lad wrote:You're confusing dpi with polling rate, there's no sensor in any mouse that runs at 6000hz+. (6000fps+, as you called it)
Also, you're not just confusing dpi with polling rate... you're calling dpi "fps", and associating the two things that way just goes to show your ignorance.

You can't even comprehend what other, way more knowledgeable people are talking about, yet you're calling their suggestions dumb... YOU are dumb.
I am talking about fps, you mouse is a camera and takes a lot of photos of the mat it's tracking. It does this typically at 6000fps+ even the oldest WMO1.1a ran at 6000fps allowing for polling rate overclocks on USB3 up to 6000hz

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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by A Solid lad » 25 Feb 2018, 12:27

lexlazootin wrote:
A Solid lad wrote:You're confusing dpi with polling rate, there's no sensor in any mouse that runs at 6000hz+. (6000fps+, as you called it)
Also, you're not just confusing dpi with polling rate... you're calling dpi "fps", and associating the two things that way just goes to show your ignorance.

You can't even comprehend what other, way more knowledgeable people are talking about, yet you're calling their suggestions dumb... YOU are dumb.
I am talking about fps, you mouse is a camera and takes a lot of photos of the mat it's tracking. It does this typically at 6000fps+ even the oldest WMO1.1a ran at 6000fps allowing for polling rate overclocks on USB3 up to 6000hz
Now I feel DUMB. fml
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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Feb 2018, 13:19

A Solid lad wrote:You're the dumb one here.
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Although you two seem to have made up, next time please throw fact-checks at each other rather than names. :D Okay?

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Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor

Post by A Solid lad » 25 Feb 2018, 13:45

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
A Solid lad wrote:You're the dumb one here.
Public Service Reminder: The Happy Forum Guidelines & Rules
--> No name calling even to those you disagree with.


Although you two seem to have made up, next time please throw fact-checks at each other rather than names. :D Okay?

Cheers
Yeah, will try not to embarrass myself in the future.
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