[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

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mello
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Joined: 31 Jan 2014, 04:24

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by mello » 26 Mar 2020, 09:48

Nawafwabs wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 13:36
I did this test 2 days and i check it and it confirmed that the emi is the main issue

if you think power condition will fix it 100% this is wrong

You need to fix the hole house or you face this delay all your life or maybe you move to other house and do emi test over 24 hours to make sure not effect by other things

https://youtu.be/wGfhfayYfHU
I have looked into this and the device you used, which is a Greenwave EMI (Dirty Electricity) Meter. The company sells Dirty Electricity Filters which are supposed to fix the problem. There are other companies who do the same thing and provide exactly the same products:

- Stetzer Electric (US) / Stetzerizer Filters
- SOLS Society (Swiss / EU) / Dirty Electricity Filters Greenwave SOLS for Switzerland and EU
- EMF Protection (UK) / Dirty Electricity Filters for UK and EU

These filters and meters are not cheap, and i have seen comments and reviews that these are a scam, and either they do not work as advertised or they create magnetic field which may be causing other problems, see this video: Perils and Problems with Dirty Electricity Filters: What to be Aware of!

But on the above video, there is also this comment:
We have seen this video before and it is inaccurate and sadly misleading. Let me explain how magnetic fields are created in homes. The Live and Neutral wires have opposing currents which both create magnetic fields, but they neutralize each other when the wires are next to each other. When you separate the fields you get an independent magnetic field.

This misleading video sets up a wiring error by separating Live and Neutral wires and then puts a voltage on them which will always create a magnetic field under every situation. This is NOT a result from the filter, this is from the wiring error created. If instead of a filter you place a light bulb or a phone on charge in the circuit you would get the same magnetic field so its NOT caused by the filter but the wiring error.

In Australia we use twin and earth cables where the Live and Neutral cables are manufactured within the same cable so the magnetic field is neutralized. Only where the live and neutral are separated will a magnetic field occur.You will always measure a small local field around every powerpoint which has a device plugged in and is switched on because the wires are separated out in the back of the wall socket to supply the socket, so with any device including the filters you will read a magnetic field at the power socket or any place where the wires are separated, this is called a wiring error . This will typically diminish at around 30cm distance. You won't place the filters under bed heads to avoid sleeping spaces.

I hope this clarifies the situation and the video misleading the public.
So not sure what to think about that. Anyone here has experience with that kind of stuff ?

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nuggify
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by nuggify » 26 Mar 2020, 15:41

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:08
I'm glad you fixed your electrical-power-related issues!

One of the most difficult types of computer problems to fix.

Appreciate the success report. Multiple reports of lag solved by fixing electricity problems, means I'm interested in seeing someone stu8dy this problem more closely. There would be a market for easier "semi-comprehensive" EMI/ground troubleshooting. I have a simpler ground fault detector, but it only detects a few ground issues, and it doesn't detect EMI.
He did not fix his issue. Furthermore troubleshooting this type of problem can be extremely costly and time consuming. We cannot just buy a good power conditioner or UPS. The best type of EMI/RFI "filtering" is a good low impedance grounding (return path for transient current) - nothing else can make up for this. I do not mean offense and I see you are trying to help, however it is misinformation to say that people need a power conditioner or that it will do anything at all in terms of an EMI/RFI problem like ours. Modern day PSUs are extremely good at smoothing the power out as they convert it from AC to DC. With a high impedance ground neither a PSU nor a Power Conditioner/Online UPS will be able to short the high frequency transients to ground- instead it will just transfer between your appliances/devices or radiate into the airspace from the wiring throughout your home.

Once again I will drop this description that an industrial EE supplied me with upon hearing my electricians breakdown of my issues:
As for how all of this works.. impedance is referring to how easy current flows at various frequencies. It does vary with frequency so high frequency stuff will see higher impedance than low frequency stuff. What that means is that when your device generates RF noise the filters will try shorting it to ground. If you have a low impedance ground then you just get RF current on ground, RF current in a wire can radiate into the air and go into other stuff. It's much worse though when you have a high impedance ground. Current into a high impedance ground turns into a voltage on ground. This will also go into your neutral and you'll see a voltage where it will feed into the filters on other devices (they assume ground is zero) and their voltages can swing at RF rates. Essentially most things are designed to assume ground and neutral are zero volts and reference everything to that. RF noise from a device when you have a high impedance ground basically goes into all other devices instead of the actual ground.

So in the end, RF noise can travel through wires, it can jump from wires to the air, interfere with wireless stuff. Also, yea, power is 120V and the noise is typically tiny milivolts, but your electronics has filters that let noise move to ground, so RF voltages can jump right past the filters in many cases without getting reduced (input might be 120V is 30mV of noise and output could be 3.3V with 30mV of noise). The noise can even get amplified if it messes with sensitive parts.
You either fix the grounding impedance/resistance issues or you do not fix it. That is the bottom line here.
mello wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 09:48

I have looked into this and the device you used, which is a Greenwave EMI (Dirty Electricity) Meter. The company sells Dirty Electricity Filters which are supposed to fix the problem. There are other companies who do the same thing and provide exactly the same products:

- Stetzer Electric (US) / Stetzerizer Filters
- SOLS Society (Swiss / EU) / Dirty Electricity Filters Greenwave SOLS for Switzerland and EU
- EMF Protection (UK) / Dirty Electricity Filters for UK and EU

These filters and meters are not cheap, and i have seen comments and reviews that these are a scam, and either they do not work as advertised or they create magnetic field which may be causing other problems, see this video: Perils and Problems with Dirty Electricity Filters: What to be Aware of!

But on the above video, there is also this comment:
We have seen this video before and it is inaccurate and sadly misleading. Let me explain how magnetic fields are created in homes. The Live and Neutral wires have opposing currents which both create magnetic fields, but they neutralize each other when the wires are next to each other. When you separate the fields you get an independent magnetic field.

This misleading video sets up a wiring error by separating Live and Neutral wires and then puts a voltage on them which will always create a magnetic field under every situation. This is NOT a result from the filter, this is from the wiring error created. If instead of a filter you place a light bulb or a phone on charge in the circuit you would get the same magnetic field so its NOT caused by the filter but the wiring error.

In Australia we use twin and earth cables where the Live and Neutral cables are manufactured within the same cable so the magnetic field is neutralized. Only where the live and neutral are separated will a magnetic field occur.You will always measure a small local field around every powerpoint which has a device plugged in and is switched on because the wires are separated out in the back of the wall socket to supply the socket, so with any device including the filters you will read a magnetic field at the power socket or any place where the wires are separated, this is called a wiring error . This will typically diminish at around 30cm distance. You won't place the filters under bed heads to avoid sleeping spaces.

I hope this clarifies the situation and the video misleading the public.
So not sure what to think about that. Anyone here has experience with that kind of stuff ?
Excellent post showing the problems with these Greenwave "detectors and filters". There is zero proof that these devices offer any concrete evidence of actual problems. Stop cheaping out on this people- we need to run actual electrical tests with real devices- clamp meters, multi meters, 4 point ground tests (resistance), spectrum analyzers, and oscilloscopes are the only devices that will bring light to these issues. I am not trying to be combative- this is a real issue that I have seen first hand and wrote in depth about. I am still unsure of the exact nature of the issue however it is certainly related to grounding (return path for transient interference). This is not some simple, "buy a device or two and call it fixed"- trust me I tried.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Mar 2020, 16:44

Nawafwabs wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 05:57
just i want to Add that my power condition generate emi and slow my pc

i wake up today and i play some games and i feel heavy

so i test all plug and it give me good result

then i test my power condition and i found out he cause my issue

so i plug my pc direct to wall and that immediately recover my pc from that input lag and slow motion

i didnt record that but if you want i will do it
Interesting datapoint. Which model of power conditioner?

Would be shocked (pun) if it is not one of the cheaper models. That's not supposed to happen with good proper power conditioners.
nuggify wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 15:41
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:08
I'm glad you fixed your electrical-power-related issues!

One of the most difficult types of computer problems to fix.

Appreciate the success report. Multiple reports of lag solved by fixing electricity problems, means I'm interested in seeing someone stu8dy this problem more closely. There would be a market for easier "semi-comprehensive" EMI/ground troubleshooting. I have a simpler ground fault detector, but it only detects a few ground issues, and it doesn't detect EMI.
He did not fix his issue. Furthermore troubleshooting this type of problem can be extremely costly and time consuming. [snip]
Oh, not fixed yet? Have you been able to do a blind-confirm it is fixed by testing with cleaner power and/or temporarily removing culprits (that you have control over) from your mains? Just wanted to be sure that this is indeed an EMI confirmation (computer speedup/slowdown co-relating with EMI levels).
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nuggify
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by nuggify » 26 Mar 2020, 17:23

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 16:44

Oh, not fixed yet? Have you been able to do a blind-confirm it is fixed by testing with cleaner power and/or temporarily removing culprits (that you have control over) from your mains? Just wanted to be sure that this is indeed an EMI confirmation (computer speedup/slowdown co-relating with EMI levels).
He did not fix it, merely showed some (questionable) data evidence (not concrete proof by any means). Now that being said I have the exact issues he does and have even tried the same power conditioner- it works temporarily however by no means is it a solution. Others with this issue (there are many- it is documented on other sites like OCN, Nvidia forums, Reddit etc) have tested some much better power conditioners. However the ultimate power filtration system is an Online UPS and I own a very good one. A good Online UPS will completely double convert the mains AC (twice if consider your PSU in your PC does it as well) and this will fix virtually any power problems bar one- grounding issues. The reason for that being the way any "power filtration" works is via a good grounding system- electrical transients do not cease to exist when filtered, it is just shorted to ground- receives another return path (ground) rather than interfering with our devices.

This is absolutely a case of EMI/RFI messing with our PCs but it has multiple symptoms/affects. For one because our grounding is compromised and high impedance as a result, we may be getting voltages on our neutral/ground. This is important as PCs (logical controllers, chips etc) in particular are designed to reference ground/neutral with voltages as close to 0 as possible. Then there is the ECC that you have commented on. While this is very hard to verify I am certain it is true. Our cables are acting as antennas (inducting) for the radiated RFI and it is blocking some signals resulting in the ECC creating a delay because of having to resend the signal. In our cases inputs are often "dropped", out of sync and have varying degrees of delay.

Now the question here is what is the actual factor that is compromising our grounding systems in this way. I know many with these issues reside in countries with less than ideal electrical practices, however I know a good number of folks with this issue in Canada and developed regions of EU. I myself am in the US. So clearly there is more to this problem and I have provided one potential cause for the issue itself- the shared metallic water lines (bonded to grounding systems per NEC) being used as a parallel path to the transformer for unbalanced current and thus creating substantially increased levels of electro magnetic fields throughout and near the home. This was all verified in my situation which I believe I have shared on this forum previously. However I am still sure there are a number of causes for a "high impedance ground". This type of ground issue is hardly easy to diagnose- your 3 prong plug tester will absolutely not tell you about this. For this you need the proper tools/know-how to measure and calculate resistance and impedance of the grounding systems. It is also important to differentiate the terminology behind "grounding" and what it may refer to: return path to source versus earthing.

And yes I have not fixed my situation yet I have multiple times verified it is no particular device in my home (shut mains off and the issue remains- the amperage on the water lines is still very high). We then shut my neighbors power off (my electrician worked with them in order to tighten their neutral connection to POCO- before this they had 15 amps unbalanced current on their water line, a massive amount that will create very large EMF). While their power was out (ours as well) the symptoms of the issue were vastly reduced, I tested my laptop on battery at the time both homes were powered off. At this time I was monitoring the clamp meter on our homes waterline and the amperage went to .5amps and under. Still as my electrician stated there can be currents on the metallic shared waterlines from any one of the other 6 homes on our same transformer. The potential fix here is isolating our pipes by replacing a portion with non metallic PVC. This will break continuity for the return current. However I am waiting for the water company (city) to give me a quote on this and as you can imagine with the state of the world at the moment it is not an ideal time for work like this to happen.

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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Mar 2020, 17:36

Thanks for the supplemental detail. So things behaved much better when your neighbour's power was off.

Yes, these kinds of things are extremely difficult to troubleshoot. If you fully fix it many months later, please come back to bump up this thread to let us know how that solution worked.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
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       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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nuggify
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by nuggify » 26 Mar 2020, 17:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 17:36
Thanks for the supplemental detail. So things behaved much better when your neighbour's power was off.

Yes, these kinds of things are extremely difficult to troubleshoot. If you fully fix it many months later, please come back to bump up this thread to let us know how that solution worked.
No problem, thanks for keeping an open mind and being receptive to some of this. I know it can be hard to swallow (believe) and I can say from personal experience I did not believe it for a long time. Still I know for fact there are others out there with this exact problem- wondering why their very high end hardware is seriously under preforming. I aim to bring some awareness (obviously attempt to get to a serious and reasonable solution) and continue to discuss this problem. I understand skepticism and this is truly one of the hardest things to prove without possessing a high speed camera or serious electrical equipment. However I believe there is an adequate and rational explanation for it all, and I will continue to discuss this in good faith.

Nawafwabs
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Nawafwabs » 28 Mar 2020, 07:49

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 16:44
Nawafwabs wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 05:57
just i want to Add that my power condition generate emi and slow my pc

i wake up today and i play some games and i feel heavy

so i test all plug and it give me good result

then i test my power condition and i found out he cause my issue

so i plug my pc direct to wall and that immediately recover my pc from that input lag and slow motion

i didnt record that but if you want i will do it
Interesting datapoint. Which model of power conditioner?

Would be shocked (pun) if it is not one of the cheaper models. That's not supposed to happen with good proper power conditioners.
nuggify wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 15:41
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:08
I'm glad you fixed your electrical-power-related issues!

One of the most difficult types of computer problems to fix.

Appreciate the success report. Multiple reports of lag solved by fixing electricity problems, means I'm interested in seeing someone stu8dy this problem more closely. There would be a market for easier "semi-comprehensive" EMI/ground troubleshooting. I have a simpler ground fault detector, but it only detects a few ground issues, and it doesn't detect EMI.
He did not fix his issue. Furthermore troubleshooting this type of problem can be extremely costly and time consuming. [snip]
Oh, not fixed yet? Have you been able to do a blind-confirm it is fixed by testing with cleaner power and/or temporarily removing culprits (that you have control over) from your mains? Just wanted to be sure that this is indeed an EMI confirmation (computer speedup/slowdown co-relating with EMI levels).

The power condition model is furman M10XE

I fix it chief but in video i show the difference between when you have issue and when you dont have it

The issue in main circuit , one of rooms was caused that i turn it off and all plug in house give me good result

“My mother was using that room and that cause issue “

I know that after record that video

You dont need any filter or power condition or any device

You need only to fix emi in all house or around your room at leaste

Im playing now without any issue , even my eyes got pain for gaming straight for 12hours

I enjoy every second i play and i love it


Sorry for late update

mello
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by mello » 29 Mar 2020, 04:48

Nawafwabs wrote:
28 Mar 2020, 07:49
I fix it chief but in video i show the difference between when you have issue and when you dont have it

The issue in main circuit , one of rooms was caused that i turn it off and all plug in house give me good result

“My mother was using that room and that cause issue “

You dont need any filter or power condition or any device

You need only to fix emi in all house or around your room at leaste
If what you are saying is true, then:

- using "Dirty Electricity Filters" should fix the problem immediately, without the need of fixing the main circuit
- powering off everything in your house, except your own room, should either fix or improve these things
- switching off fuses with the exception of your own room should fix the problem
- disconnecting the offending device / devices (like in your mothers room) should also fix or at least improve everything

And if all the above are true, then you should easily track and measure the changes with these "Greenwave EMI (Dirty Electricity) Meters". These meters are measuring noise levels (mV), so reducing the noise in the wall socket that your PC is connected to, by powering off offending devices / fuses should fix the problem and the metter should be showing lower levels of noise WITHOUT the need of fixing electrical installation / main circuit. Also, if everything above is true, then you should be able to track down offending devices by powering everything off one by one in your house and using the meter to measure noise levels.

Now, over the last 10+ years i have seen MANY people claiming that they have fixed their "electricity" problems and they got a smooth / lag free gameplay, and after few days / weeks they went back and said that their problems have "returned". This has lead me to believe these people are simply going crazy and they are talking nonsense, and they are simply overlooking the real culprit and the real offender, meaning internet connection and network congestion issues. Please note, i'm not saying that "dirty electricity" and EMI/RFI is not causing issues in some very rare situations, but from my experience in nearly all cases i have seen in past two decades it is always network congestion problems that are causing the problems that people are experiencing with online gaming.

This is why i'm very sceptical about your results and a supposed fix.
nuggify wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 22:33
What I am getting at is my situation is not remedied by any power conditioner, Online UPS or otherwise. You cannot fix a bad ground with these devices. For this it takes much more in depth and costly solutions.
If the bad ground is the culprit, wouldn't fixing grounding only in your room where you play and your PC is, be an ultimate fix to these problems ? You can place a new grounding cable & rod in the ground and connect it directly to your room and only to your most needed wall sockets without the need of altering & fixing the entire electrical system in your home, right ? This would also be even more messy than costly really.

vitalion
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by vitalion » 29 Mar 2020, 05:10

mello wrote:
29 Mar 2020, 04:48
Nawafwabs wrote:
28 Mar 2020, 07:49
I fix it chief but in video i show the difference between when you have issue and when you dont have it

The issue in main circuit , one of rooms was caused that i turn it off and all plug in house give me good result

“My mother was using that room and that cause issue “

You dont need any filter or power condition or any device

You need only to fix emi in all house or around your room at leaste
If what you are saying is true, then:

- using "Dirty Electricity Filters" should fix the problem immediately, without the need of fixing the main circuit
- powering off everything in your house, except your own room, should either fix or improve these things
- switching off fuses with the exception of your own room should fix the problem
- disconnecting the offending device / devices (like in your mothers room) should also fix or at least improve everything

And if all the above are true, then you should easily track and measure the changes with these "Greenwave EMI (Dirty Electricity) Meters". These meters are measuring noise levels (mV), so reducing the noise in the wall socket that your PC is connected to, by powering off offending devices / fuses should fix the problem and the metter should be showing lower levels of noise WITHOUT the need of fixing electrical installation / main circuit. Also, if everything above is true, then you should be able to track down offending devices by powering everything off one by one in your house and using the meter to measure noise levels.

Now, over the last 10+ years i have seen MANY people claiming that they have fixed their "electricity" problems and they got a smooth / lag free gameplay, and after few days / weeks they went back and said that their problems have "returned". This has lead me to believe these people are simply going crazy and they are talking nonsense, and they are simply overlooking the real culprit and the real offender, meaning internet connection and network congestion issues. Please note, i'm not saying that "dirty electricity" and EMI/RFI is not causing issues in some very rare situations, but from my experience in nearly all cases i have seen in past two decades it is always network congestion problems that are causing the problems that people are experiencing with online gaming.

This is why i'm very sceptical about your results and a supposed fix.
nuggify wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 22:33
What I am getting at is my situation is not remedied by any power conditioner, Online UPS or otherwise. You cannot fix a bad ground with these devices. For this it takes much more in depth and costly solutions.
If the bad ground is the culprit, wouldn't fixing grounding only in your room where you play and your PC is, be an ultimate fix to these problems ? You can place a new grounding cable & rod in the ground and connect it directly to your room and only to your most needed wall sockets without the need of altering & fixing the entire electrical system in your home, right ? This would also be even more messy than costly really.
I wonder how internet connection would explain the mouse inconsistency on desktop and with disconnected network cable

I've yet to see a single case of mouse related issues resulted from network.

mello
Posts: 200
Joined: 31 Jan 2014, 04:24

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by mello » 29 Mar 2020, 05:57

vitalion wrote:
29 Mar 2020, 05:10
I wonder how internet connection would explain the mouse inconsistency on desktop and with disconnected network cable

I've yet to see a single case of mouse related issues resulted from network.
I was referring to the general and well known issue that many people are experiencing with various "input lag" problems in FPS games while playing online. Never said anything about mouse inconsistency on desktop, and i haven't even seen it being mentioned in this thread. If someone has some weird mouse inconsistency / input lag on desktop it obviously has nothing to do with internet / networking.

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