Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

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Syndaz
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021, 23:10

Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by Syndaz » 14 Oct 2021, 03:22

jorimt wrote:
13 Oct 2021, 19:44
MT_ wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 16:54
developers can even artificially increase input lag in their code and system performance would have zero to do with the effect on it.
It's certainly true that devs can prioritize engine-level latency as little or as much as they want in certain respects (such as frame buffers, render time budgets, tick and physics rates, and general engine efficiency like asset loading, memory allocation, etc), regardless of system capability.

Sometimes the biggest bottleneck on even the most capable of systems can be the game itself, unfortunately.

That said, seeing as Apex in particular is running a very old, albeit heavily modified version of the Source (1) engine, it's genuinely surprising it runs on modern systems as well as it does, all things considered.

For instance, CS:GO's engine is also Source (1), and not only is it extremely CPU-limited (single-core performance is the most impactful metric for achieving higher average framerates in this particular game, for instance), it tends to start having mouse issues at higher DPI levels as well, one reason you probably see a lot of CS:GO players only using 400-800 DPI.

Not inferring that's the OP issue, but worth noting, nonetheless.
Yeah Apex is impressive somewhat to be able to run like it is with the duct taped and modded Source Engine they're running it on. Cracks are definitely showing though with each patch putting the game in a worse state. I'm lucky to not have stutters in game but I have a really odd issue when setting a frame rate cap anything lower than 155 that causes some insane visual lag. Input lag is fine but the game visually looks like I have VSYNC set at 60 for some reason and I honestly haven't a damn clue what causes it.

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jorimt
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Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by jorimt » 14 Oct 2021, 07:11

Syndaz wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 03:22
I have a really odd issue when setting a frame rate cap anything lower than 155 that causes some insane visual lag. Input lag is fine but the game visually looks like I have VSYNC set at 60 for some reason and I honestly haven't a damn clue what causes it.
Only the devs know, and even then probably not, since it (apparently) exists in the first place (though I can't say I've experienced that particular issue on my system; certain system configurations can expose certain engine weaknesses or quirks sometimes). There are a variety of reasons frame pacing or input issues can occur at the engine-level, and they are usually specific to said engine.

Deathloop has even more frame pacing (and originally, input) issues than Apex due to the Void engine (which Dishonored 2 also ran on, and it had similar problems), and is still basically limited to 60 FPS if you want anything approaching smooth/consistent frame pacing (when it's not stuttering due to other engine issues :?).
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS ROG Swift PG279QM / LG 48CX OS: Windows 10 MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 UG RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

Stimpy7314
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Joined: 27 Sep 2021, 11:20

Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by Stimpy7314 » 14 Oct 2021, 09:54

jorimt wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 07:11
Syndaz wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 03:22
I have a really odd issue when setting a frame rate cap anything lower than 155 that causes some insane visual lag. Input lag is fine but the game visually looks like I have VSYNC set at 60 for some reason and I honestly haven't a damn clue what causes it.
Only the devs know, and even then probably not, since it (apparently) exists in the first place (though I can't say I've experienced that particular issue on my system; certain system configurations can expose certain engine weaknesses or quirks sometimes). There are a variety of reasons frame pacing or input issues can occur at the engine-level, and they are usually specific to said engine.

Deathloop has even more frame pacing (and originally, input) issues than Apex due to the Void engine (which Dishonored 2 also ran on, and it had similar problems), and is still basically limited to 60 FPS if you want anything approaching smooth/consistent frame pacing (when it's not stuttering due to other engine issues :?).
I don't understand why they dont fix it. Al they care is u buying 20$ Skins. If the shop is broken it would be fixed within 2 hours. But if a legend is broken because of a bug it would take 2 weeks. Facking moneygrabbers 😡

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jorimt
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Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by jorimt » 14 Oct 2021, 10:37

Stimpy7314 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 09:54
I don't understand why they dont fix it. Al they care is u buying 20$ Skins. If the shop is broken it would be fixed within 2 hours. But if a legend is broken because of a bug it would take 2 weeks. Facking moneygrabbers 😡
Some of it may be an engine-limitation that can't be fixed without remaking the whole game in a new engine, unfortunately, so they just end up having to mitigate what they can when it's reported.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS ROG Swift PG279QM / LG 48CX OS: Windows 10 MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 UG RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

Stimpy7314
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Joined: 27 Sep 2021, 11:20

Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by Stimpy7314 » 14 Oct 2021, 10:44

jorimt wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 10:37
Stimpy7314 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 09:54
I don't understand why they dont fix it. Al they care is u buying 20$ Skins. If the shop is broken it would be fixed within 2 hours. But if a legend is broken because of a bug it would take 2 weeks. Facking moneygrabbers 😡
Some of it may be an engine-limitation that can't be fixed without remaking the whole game in a new engine, unfortunately, so they just end up having to mitigate what they can when it's reported.
U got a point.

I mostly play between 21:00 / 3:00 i must say when playing around 2:00 night time the game feels normal conpared playing around lets say 15:00 or 21:00. Is that because most people are sleeping and the engine is not overloaded? Or im a wrong? Sorry if my english is not onpoint. Its not my native language hha

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jorimt
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Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by jorimt » 14 Oct 2021, 11:09

Stimpy7314 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 10:44
I mostly play between 21:00 / 3:00 i must say when playing around 2:00 night time the game feels normal conpared playing around lets say 15:00 or 21:00. Is that because most people are sleeping and the engine is not overloaded? Or im a wrong?
You're not wrong.

The game's netcode, your particular region, and the quality of your ISP provider can have a big impact on online games. And yes, server congestion can make some of it worse during more active times of the day when more people are on (and not just on the game, but on the internet on your same service in your same service area in general).

Also, this usually goes without saying, but you want to play with your computer wired to your modem/router (not wireless) when possible. It typically provides both a faster and more stable connection.

That said, there are certainly engine problems that can cause issues separate of netcode in some games like Apex, but if most of them are disappearing for you when your internet is less congested, it's a good bet it's mostly the variance in sever load that is causing the issues in your particular situation.

Online gaming can suck for these sort of reasons, sadly, with no guarantees from moment to moment.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS ROG Swift PG279QM / LG 48CX OS: Windows 10 MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 UG RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

kyube
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Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by kyube » 14 Oct 2021, 11:53

jorimt wrote:
13 Oct 2021, 19:44
For instance, CS:GO's engine is also Source (1), and not only is it extremely CPU-limited (single-core performance is the most impactful metric for achieving higher average framerates in this particular game, for instance), it tends to start having mouse issues at higher DPI levels as well, one reason you probably see a lot of CS:GO players only using 400-800 DPI.
Could you link me the source of this discovery? I've always wondered why 1600dpi and 3200dpi just felt off in Apex & CS, could be the cause
Last edited by kyube on 14 Oct 2021, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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jorimt
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Re: Apex legends, Gameplay feels awful/choppy

Post by jorimt » 14 Oct 2021, 13:44

kyube wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 11:53
Could you link me the source of this discovery? I've always wondered why 1600dpi and 3200dpi just felt off in Apex in CS, could be the cause
I was primarily made aware of it by the Chief (titles like CS:GO that use older engines like Source aren't as high DPI/polling rate friendly), so he could probably expound.

Here's a thread he started about a potential API to address such mouse issues as well:
viewtopic.php?t=7739

I personally assume this is because the Source engine was developed and released around the time many people still played at low resolutions on CRTs, where higher DPI wasn't as prevalent (and the lower the res, the less DPI you needed to get the mouse from one side of the screen to the other), and even when there was higher than, say, 800-1000 DPI, it tended to be artificially smoothed on the mouse sensors at the time, making its usage unappealing for those that wanted as close to 1:1 mouse input as possible.

Basically, Source wasn't future-proofed for high Hz polling and DPI (let alone, say, 360Hz refresh rates + high polling & DPI), and with the advent of sensors now able to achieve higher native DPI levels (without smoothing), up to 8k polling rates now becoming available, and higher resolutions and refresh rates approaching the norm, it's starting to show.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS ROG Swift PG279QM / LG 48CX OS: Windows 10 MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 UG RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

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