input lag on newer pcs

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
ptuga
Posts: 44
Joined: 20 May 2020, 02:06

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by ptuga » 21 Jun 2022, 07:26

I also feel the same. My old 4690k had the best mouse movement. My 8700k was trash, but also the board was trash at memory stability/OC, had to use 3600mhz cl15 for best feeling, auto subs.

My 12700k + z690 tuf has very good mouse feeling. But again, memory/cpu needs to be set right. Too tight memory timings/unstable mem/cpu equals bad mouse feeling. I'm using 2x16gb at 3866mhz cl15 with tight subs, feels great.
And yes, it's super important your memory training is stable(always aligned RTLs). One things is certain, jedec always feels good no matter what in whatever board/cpu. Manual oc can feel slightly better if done right, xmp trash most of the time.

I think people obsess about electricity too much for some reason. Never had a problem and have used pc on some really bad conditions. Focus on getting gud, even this feeling bad on newer hardware is minimal, unless the system is really unstable.

Slender
Posts: 573
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by Slender » 21 Jun 2022, 08:30

asus z690-p d4
Attachments
z690.PNG
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ptuga
Posts: 44
Joined: 20 May 2020, 02:06

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by ptuga » 21 Jun 2022, 09:03

Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 08:30
asus z690-p d4
This is how i setup mine, if my cpu was better it would be 4000mhz.
There no reason to have b-die at only 3200mhz, 3600mhz cl14 minimum.
Image

Slender
Posts: 573
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by Slender » 21 Jun 2022, 12:03

ptuga wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 09:03
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 08:30
asus z690-p d4
This is how i setup mine, if my cpu was better it would be 4000mhz.
There no reason to have b-die at only 3200mhz, 3600mhz cl14 minimum.
Image
on the 3600, with the same timings, it no longer starts, on the z390, everything was much easier with this
Attachments
2.PNG
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kokkatc
Posts: 108
Joined: 23 Mar 2017, 13:49

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by kokkatc » 21 Jun 2022, 16:15

Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 00:49
kokkatc wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 23:53
Slender wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 17:34
kokkatc wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 14:02
So for me personally, Alder Lake has been an absolute nightmare, primarily because mouse feel and responsiveness constantly changes from day to day. I'm starting to strongly suspect and believe that input lag/responsiveness issues w/ Alder Lake is DDR4 incompatibility.

All of my kits are samsung b-die and not a single one of them run properly on xmp. XMP just doesn't seem to work. I have to make adjustments to system agent, dram voltage, training voltage and even termination settings just to get XMP to boot and when it does boot, the mouse can feel great one moment and then feel like it's in mud another moment. What I noticed in my situation is that my RTLS are constantly changing, so memory training just appears to be broken as well. Once I found good rtl/iol settings I'd try and lock them in but my mouse feel was always changing. Games also don't feel great at high FPS. The game just feels like it's in mud along w/ movement and mouse feel when it's misbehaving.

I strongly suspect Alder Lake issues stem from ddr4 incompatibility. You can't even get kits to run in a stable fashion @ or above 3600. I switched from a 5800x which I think I'm probably going to go back to in the short run. I also still have my 9700k/mobo I may even go back to as well.
i create thread about alder lake issue
have 2 big problem
ram and timer
after i move from z390 + 9700k, i feel difference, alder lake = trash
https://www.overclock.net/threads/asus- ... t-28964130
asus z690 very bad. i have z690-p d4
this is trash.
just try any msi board or ignore alder lake
Funny that you say that. I just purchased a MSI z690-a Pro yesterday because from what I've read and seen, MSI is the only brand for z690 that ram works correctly. Wish I knew this sooner....

Sounds like we have the same problem. I came from z390 9700k as well and alder lake has not been good to me. Are you going to switch back or possibly go AMD? AMD Ryzen latency is a good deal higher due to their CPU architecture so I was never too enthusiastic about going AMD.

I do not know what to do.
I am attracted to the 5800x.
the inter-core latency is very low, lower than on any other processor. Plus, it has its own USB, and pci gen4. What you think about it?

Second Variant i7-10700kf and z490 platform

msi z690 solved your weird mice, or not 100% solution on this platform?
When Ryzen Zen 3 first launched I switched over from my 9700k to the 5800x. At this time there were a lot of issues w/ memory latency, ram compatibility and usb issues galore. I got pretty frustrated with it and switched right on over to Alder lake when it launched and picked up a 12700k kit. I believe all of those initial issues have been fixed at this point so I'm actually going to rebuild my ryzen kit (5800x Asrock x570 Phantom Gaming x, High-end Samsung B-DIE Ram). I just picked up a 280mm RAD for this.

The first thing I noticed w/ Zen 3 is that DPC Latency is a good deal higher than my 9700k & 12700k kits. This is strange given core to core latency is faster w/ AMD Zen 3 but I don't think that is the full picture.

My MSI board came in today for my alder lake system so I'll install that tonight, test, then rebuild my 5800x system over the weekend and test that as well. I'll report back my progress on this.

ptuga
Posts: 44
Joined: 20 May 2020, 02:06

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by ptuga » 21 Jun 2022, 16:48

Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 12:03

on the 3600, with the same timings, it no longer starts, on the z390, everything was much easier with this
You obviously need to scale voltages... Also that board might not like 1T command at higher frequencies, my z690 tuf has no problem with 1T, but that board uses different bios and memory layout.
Set dram voltage to 1.45v. For 3866 c15 ~1.45v, for 4000 c15 ~1.5v. Test stability, increase if needed.
sa voltage to 1.2
Now it should boot just fine.
There are plenty of info on the internet, google it. This is the wrong forum.

Slender
Posts: 573
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by Slender » 21 Jun 2022, 17:23

kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:15
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 00:49
kokkatc wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 23:53
Slender wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 17:34


i create thread about alder lake issue
have 2 big problem
ram and timer
after i move from z390 + 9700k, i feel difference, alder lake = trash
https://www.overclock.net/threads/asus- ... t-28964130
asus z690 very bad. i have z690-p d4
this is trash.
just try any msi board or ignore alder lake
Funny that you say that. I just purchased a MSI z690-a Pro yesterday because from what I've read and seen, MSI is the only brand for z690 that ram works correctly. Wish I knew this sooner....

Sounds like we have the same problem. I came from z390 9700k as well and alder lake has not been good to me. Are you going to switch back or possibly go AMD? AMD Ryzen latency is a good deal higher due to their CPU architecture so I was never too enthusiastic about going AMD.

I do not know what to do.
I am attracted to the 5800x.
the inter-core latency is very low, lower than on any other processor. Plus, it has its own USB, and pci gen4. What you think about it?

Second Variant i7-10700kf and z490 platform

msi z690 solved your weird mice, or not 100% solution on this platform?
When Ryzen Zen 3 first launched I switched over from my 9700k to the 5800x. At this time there were a lot of issues w/ memory latency, ram compatibility and usb issues galore. I got pretty frustrated with it and switched right on over to Alder lake when it launched and picked up a 12700k kit. I believe all of those initial issues have been fixed at this point so I'm actually going to rebuild my ryzen kit (5800x Asrock x570 Phantom Gaming x, High-end Samsung B-DIE Ram). I just picked up a 280mm RAD for this.

The first thing I noticed w/ Zen 3 is that DPC Latency is a good deal higher than my 9700k & 12700k kits. This is strange given core to core latency is faster w/ AMD Zen 3 but I don't think that is the full picture.

My MSI board came in today for my alder lake system so I'll install that tonight, test, then rebuild my 5800x system over the weekend and test that as well. I'll report back my progress on this.
I'm really looking forward to your updates.
I'm thinking of switching to the 5800x, but I'm not sure that this will give any gain, although on paper it's a very good processor, maybe it's worth playing around with the settings? I've heard that ryzen doesn't like some bcdedit and timers.
ptuga wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:48
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 12:03

on the 3600, with the same timings, it no longer starts, on the z390, everything was much easier with this
You obviously need to scale voltages... Also that board might not like 1T command at higher frequencies, my z690 tuf has no problem with 1T, but that board uses different bios and memory layout.
Set dram voltage to 1.45v. For 3866 c15 ~1.45v, for 4000 c15 ~1.5v. Test stability, increase if needed.
sa voltage to 1.2
Now it should boot just fine.
There are plenty of info on the internet, google it. This is the wrong forum.
thanks, try it

kokkatc
Posts: 108
Joined: 23 Mar 2017, 13:49

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by kokkatc » 21 Jun 2022, 23:50

Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 17:23
kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:15
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 00:49
kokkatc wrote:
20 Jun 2022, 23:53


Funny that you say that. I just purchased a MSI z690-a Pro yesterday because from what I've read and seen, MSI is the only brand for z690 that ram works correctly. Wish I knew this sooner....

Sounds like we have the same problem. I came from z390 9700k as well and alder lake has not been good to me. Are you going to switch back or possibly go AMD? AMD Ryzen latency is a good deal higher due to their CPU architecture so I was never too enthusiastic about going AMD.

I do not know what to do.
I am attracted to the 5800x.
the inter-core latency is very low, lower than on any other processor. Plus, it has its own USB, and pci gen4. What you think about it?

Second Variant i7-10700kf and z490 platform

msi z690 solved your weird mice, or not 100% solution on this platform?
When Ryzen Zen 3 first launched I switched over from my 9700k to the 5800x. At this time there were a lot of issues w/ memory latency, ram compatibility and usb issues galore. I got pretty frustrated with it and switched right on over to Alder lake when it launched and picked up a 12700k kit. I believe all of those initial issues have been fixed at this point so I'm actually going to rebuild my ryzen kit (5800x Asrock x570 Phantom Gaming x, High-end Samsung B-DIE Ram). I just picked up a 280mm RAD for this.

The first thing I noticed w/ Zen 3 is that DPC Latency is a good deal higher than my 9700k & 12700k kits. This is strange given core to core latency is faster w/ AMD Zen 3 but I don't think that is the full picture.

My MSI board came in today for my alder lake system so I'll install that tonight, test, then rebuild my 5800x system over the weekend and test that as well. I'll report back my progress on this.
I'm really looking forward to your updates.
I'm thinking of switching to the 5800x, but I'm not sure that this will give any gain, although on paper it's a very good processor, maybe it's worth playing around with the settings? I've heard that ryzen doesn't like some bcdedit and timers.
ptuga wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:48
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 12:03

on the 3600, with the same timings, it no longer starts, on the z390, everything was much easier with this
You obviously need to scale voltages... Also that board might not like 1T command at higher frequencies, my z690 tuf has no problem with 1T, but that board uses different bios and memory layout.
Set dram voltage to 1.45v. For 3866 c15 ~1.45v, for 4000 c15 ~1.5v. Test stability, increase if needed.
sa voltage to 1.2
Now it should boot just fine.
There are plenty of info on the internet, google it. This is the wrong forum.
thanks, try it
Update #1: Switching to MSI z690-a Pro on Alder Lake. I didn't have a lot of time tonight but I was able to yank out my existing gigabyte z690 aorus elite ax ddr4 and install my new msi board. I installed one of my high end Samsung b die kits (3600/32gb/cl14) kit. This kit refused work in xmp mode on both my gigabyte and Asus z690 boards. I was able to get it to work at 3500 but it wasn't training properly and my mouse felt horrible. Good news! It trained right away and booted up in XMP mode on my first try! Ran TM5 for 15m and it appears to be stable. Jumped in a game briefly and it felt good. I'll need more time to test. I was loading my existing OS install so it wasn't a clean install I was operating on, I just wanted to get an idea.

Spent the last hour I had reinstalling my OS and will continue testing tomorrow. So far so good. The MSI z690 board worked in XMP on a kit not even on the qvl list, so that's very comforting. More to come tomo.

Slender
Posts: 573
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by Slender » 21 Jun 2022, 23:56

kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 23:50
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 17:23
kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:15
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 00:49



I do not know what to do.
I am attracted to the 5800x.
the inter-core latency is very low, lower than on any other processor. Plus, it has its own USB, and pci gen4. What you think about it?

Second Variant i7-10700kf and z490 platform

msi z690 solved your weird mice, or not 100% solution on this platform?
When Ryzen Zen 3 first launched I switched over from my 9700k to the 5800x. At this time there were a lot of issues w/ memory latency, ram compatibility and usb issues galore. I got pretty frustrated with it and switched right on over to Alder lake when it launched and picked up a 12700k kit. I believe all of those initial issues have been fixed at this point so I'm actually going to rebuild my ryzen kit (5800x Asrock x570 Phantom Gaming x, High-end Samsung B-DIE Ram). I just picked up a 280mm RAD for this.

The first thing I noticed w/ Zen 3 is that DPC Latency is a good deal higher than my 9700k & 12700k kits. This is strange given core to core latency is faster w/ AMD Zen 3 but I don't think that is the full picture.

My MSI board came in today for my alder lake system so I'll install that tonight, test, then rebuild my 5800x system over the weekend and test that as well. I'll report back my progress on this.
I'm really looking forward to your updates.
I'm thinking of switching to the 5800x, but I'm not sure that this will give any gain, although on paper it's a very good processor, maybe it's worth playing around with the settings? I've heard that ryzen doesn't like some bcdedit and timers.
ptuga wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:48
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 12:03

on the 3600, with the same timings, it no longer starts, on the z390, everything was much easier with this
You obviously need to scale voltages... Also that board might not like 1T command at higher frequencies, my z690 tuf has no problem with 1T, but that board uses different bios and memory layout.
Set dram voltage to 1.45v. For 3866 c15 ~1.45v, for 4000 c15 ~1.5v. Test stability, increase if needed.
sa voltage to 1.2
Now it should boot just fine.
There are plenty of info on the internet, google it. This is the wrong forum.
thanks, try it
Update #1: Switching to MSI z690-a Pro on Alder Lake. I didn't have a lot of time tonight but I was able to yank out my existing gigabyte z690 aorus elite ax ddr4 and install my new msi board. I installed one of my high end Samsung b die kits (3600/32gb/cl14) kit. This kit refused work in xmp mode on both my gigabyte and Asus z690 boards. I was able to get it to work at 3500 but it wasn't training properly and my mouse felt horrible. Good news! It trained right away and booted up in XMP mode on my first try! Ran TM5 for 15m and it appears to be stable. Jumped in a game briefly and it felt good. I'll need more time to test. I was loading my existing OS install so it wasn't a clean install I was operating on, I just wanted to get an idea.

Spent the last hour I had reinstalling my OS and will continue testing tomorrow. So far so good. The MSI z690 board worked in XMP on a kit not even on the qvl list, so that's very comforting. More to come tomo.
all z690 and alder lake have timer issue, after reboot or on startup take 3!!! another timer resolution with different feelings.
Please, test it with bcdedit /set useplatformtick yes
+ default timer res (1ms), it will stable timer res to 1 or 0.5ms (i dont recomended 0.5)
thanks for update.

kokkatc
Posts: 108
Joined: 23 Mar 2017, 13:49

Re: input lag on newer pcs

Post by kokkatc » 22 Jun 2022, 11:03

Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 23:56
kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 23:50
Slender wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 17:23
kokkatc wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:15


When Ryzen Zen 3 first launched I switched over from my 9700k to the 5800x. At this time there were a lot of issues w/ memory latency, ram compatibility and usb issues galore. I got pretty frustrated with it and switched right on over to Alder lake when it launched and picked up a 12700k kit. I believe all of those initial issues have been fixed at this point so I'm actually going to rebuild my ryzen kit (5800x Asrock x570 Phantom Gaming x, High-end Samsung B-DIE Ram). I just picked up a 280mm RAD for this.

The first thing I noticed w/ Zen 3 is that DPC Latency is a good deal higher than my 9700k & 12700k kits. This is strange given core to core latency is faster w/ AMD Zen 3 but I don't think that is the full picture.

My MSI board came in today for my alder lake system so I'll install that tonight, test, then rebuild my 5800x system over the weekend and test that as well. I'll report back my progress on this.
I'm really looking forward to your updates.
I'm thinking of switching to the 5800x, but I'm not sure that this will give any gain, although on paper it's a very good processor, maybe it's worth playing around with the settings? I've heard that ryzen doesn't like some bcdedit and timers.
ptuga wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 16:48


You obviously need to scale voltages... Also that board might not like 1T command at higher frequencies, my z690 tuf has no problem with 1T, but that board uses different bios and memory layout.
Set dram voltage to 1.45v. For 3866 c15 ~1.45v, for 4000 c15 ~1.5v. Test stability, increase if needed.
sa voltage to 1.2
Now it should boot just fine.
There are plenty of info on the internet, google it. This is the wrong forum.
thanks, try it
Update #1: Switching to MSI z690-a Pro on Alder Lake. I didn't have a lot of time tonight but I was able to yank out my existing gigabyte z690 aorus elite ax ddr4 and install my new msi board. I installed one of my high end Samsung b die kits (3600/32gb/cl14) kit. This kit refused work in xmp mode on both my gigabyte and Asus z690 boards. I was able to get it to work at 3500 but it wasn't training properly and my mouse felt horrible. Good news! It trained right away and booted up in XMP mode on my first try! Ran TM5 for 15m and it appears to be stable. Jumped in a game briefly and it felt good. I'll need more time to test. I was loading my existing OS install so it wasn't a clean install I was operating on, I just wanted to get an idea.

Spent the last hour I had reinstalling my OS and will continue testing tomorrow. So far so good. The MSI z690 board worked in XMP on a kit not even on the qvl list, so that's very comforting. More to come tomo.
all z690 and alder lake have timer issue, after reboot or on startup take 3!!! another timer resolution with different feelings.
Please, test it with bcdedit /set useplatformtick yes
+ default timer res (1ms), it will stable timer res to 1 or 0.5ms (i dont recomended 0.5)
thanks for update.
FYI, for my Alder Lake build I use Windows 11 since it's basically required because of the thread director. Windows 11 by default will run at exactly .5ms w/ timer resolution. Sometimes it's .503 or .496 on the first click, but it goes to .5ms by the second click w/ timer resolution. Windows 11 timer resolution has changed. Most of the time it goes directly to .5ms. Are you on windows 10 by chance? I've done A LOT of bcdedit testing over the years and ultimately decided that useplatformtick yes is bad. Even disabledynamictick yes appeared to add some kind of desync, especially on 11. Even though the mouse appeared to become more consistent, it added input lag for me. Maybe that's not the case on all builds but that was always the case for me. On Windows 11 specifically I get the best results w/ leaving bcdedit settings @ default.

I'll test useplatformtick yes for you regardless and let you know.

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