Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

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daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by daviddave1 » 27 Jul 2022, 02:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 21:31
A Solid lad wrote:
24 Jul 2022, 03:01
Thanks to both of you for the infos!

What are the benefits of the Server edition over Pro? (aside from lower DPC lat)
  • More barebones (lest it interrupt server goodness)
  • Less OEM crud (lest it interrupt server goodness)
  • Less unwanted ads (lest it interrupt server goodness)
  • Less unwanted things running in background (lest it interrupt server goodness)
  • Less automatic nags (lest it interrupt server goodness)
  • Server optimization by Microsoft (low DPC latency FTW!)
  • More CPU cycles on things that matter (more server goodness per second)
It's overkill, but if you're sufficiently wealthy and have $$$ to burn, it's a route to go.

You're paying an arm and a leg -- and sometimes it is like a Bugatti Veyron or Tesla Model S Plaid just to do your grocery errands. It's efficient for some things, but not for others.

I use Pro, not Server, but some swear by it. Being that said, I don't play esports directly but I'm more well known as an equivalent of a pickaxe/shovel supplier in the esports gold rush -- e.g. the tests used in the esports industry.

But if you want the world's fastest Windows 10 compatible OS, money no object, blank cheque, there ya go -- go FTW and go Windows Server barebones install and use it to play your Fortnite game. :D

Be warned, it might not do squat, especailly if your DPC latency is already low with a hand-optimized Pro install after finishing a lot of motherboard lottery. I don't know if Pro can get as low DPC as Server, but you'll have to go full FR33THY type stuff but it's sometimes hard to tell babies apart with bathwater.

Now... if you want something that's lean mean green out of the box, a clean minimum licensed Windows Server install is pretty crud-free (even of Microsoft nags) with minimum optimizing. You can even completely disable or reschedule Windows Update with your very own fine-granularity group policy control, and stay on LTSC Channel (infrequent updates of the most critical kind). But you must be prepared to be your own real Admin if you're going to play with such fire.

Why is Server low DPC? Compete against Linux servers etc. Microsoft needed Server to do things as fast as possible, for their data centres, so they've done a lot of DPC optimization in Server -- to try and compete with Linux servers in some markets (e.g. virtualization), since VM's often have to cross a lot of DPC latencies to get things done. Although Microsoft now "loves" Linux these days, they still have to keep Server running as scared cheetah as Windows lets it.

In the refresh rate race to retina refresh rates, 360Hz to 500Hz and up, Windows Server may make more noticeable microjitter-smoothing differences in the >500Hz future, unless Microsoft starts optimizing Pro more (or that some tweaker produces a package of proper vetted tweaks that turns Pro into literally Server-quality for esports)...

No guarantee though. But the forest of placebos definitely has more noticeable trees than it used to be when it comes to ultrahigh framerates on ultrahigh refresh rate displays (that lifts the veil of ever-tinier temporal defects) in the Amazing Human Visible Feats of the Millisecond.

In several youtuber Pro-vs-Server benchmarking, the CPU benchmarks are usually higher for Server but GPU benchmarks isn't noticeably better. Some things even run slower. But CPU is where the DPC latencies are, so YMMV, and if you're playing something that's CPU/network/etc limited, Server could pull out ahead.

You *might* find some weirdness. Application launching is slightly slower but running the application is often more efficient, by virtue of prioritizing always-running apps (servers!). It is possible to find that certain kinds of workflows such as gamestreaming (UE5) might slightly underperform by a tiny amount (like 1%) because of Servers' different disk access behaviors might not be optimized for a specific game's gamestreaming pattern. While, conversely, 8000Hz mouse and networking might outperform on Server (CPU/DPC latency bottlenecks can add up more there in a death-by-a-zillon-nanoseconds style). It's a nature of how differently optimized the Windows OS versions are.

A great example of Server bareboneness is you don't see the Windows combo search box or Cortana, it's gone (by default), the file indexing is disabled by default so less stuff automatically runs in the background to bog you down. You don't see weather forecasts or fancy screen savers.

In fact, you can even omit installing the GUI (Microsoft lets you install Server with no Windows GUI!) -- aka Server Core -- and just use Task Manager or CMD as your app-launcher. Dunno how happy Fortnite / Valorant / Overwatch / etc will be if DWM and Start Menu is missing, though, but should run with superlative low latencies if it tolerates a command-line launch. Very little Microsoft crud, even!

There are some methods to switch between GUI mode and Core mode (command line), via PowerShell. Theoretically you can install all your games with full GUI first, then uninstall the GUI to remove its overhead completely, and call it a day. But I have not personally tested that.

Be prepared to pay four figures for this version of Windows though...
It's that sort of version of Windows that many small-to-medium companies only buy one license for...

Some people can hand-optimize Pro very well though, so Server does not have the monopoly here in low DPC latencies. But for tweakers who wants to save time and have more tweaking control (from a very Server POV) -- then the time savings may be worth it for some. The time-and-effort of optimizing many consumer versions of Windows (bloatware) is so extreme by some people, some spent more than $1000 of their personal time (e.g. $25/hr times 40 hours) -- when they could have saved all that time=money by getting Server instead and doing simpler quicker minor tweaks using Server as a base.

TL;DR: Windows Server cost is usually not worth it for most for gaming, but people exist out there, where gaming on Server was felt worth it for them.
Thats some good info! ty! But I payed something like 30 bucks for a Server Key. Fr33thy links to these websites where u can buy the keys. Just like TechYescity. u can also google them. Please delete this post Chief if it violates the guidelines of blurbusters.

Funny thing about Fr33thy is that he runs Windows LTSC 2021 ( or maybe Win 10 PRO) and not Server. ( I could not get LTSC to run cause I needed a custom ISO to do so. I don't trust these) He does not really believe in DPC anymore since he went full AMD. Don't get me wrong he really likes server and how clean it feels.
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

1000WATT
Posts: 391
Joined: 22 Jul 2018, 05:44

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by 1000WATT » 27 Jul 2022, 13:20

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 23:17
This stuff mainly becomes visible when MPRTs are less than the jitter error margin, so you need ultra-low MPRTs (e.g. 500Hz monitors or strobed monitors) in order to show milliseconds-league jitter that is normally invisible on 60Hz displays.

Jitter smaller than MPRT is usually lost in the MPRT motion blur, which is why a 3ms stutter is invisible at 60fps but very visible at 500fps (or when impulse-driven like a CRT at sub-3ms MPRT).
Over three years ago.
Scenario.
vrr+mbr (benq)144hz - vrr+ulmb (nvidia)165hz
The brightest backlight in strobe mode was at 120 hz. And as a result, the limitation in rtss is also 120hz.
At the moment of frame time instability, the monitor exceeded 120hz, the backlight dimmed at that moment, and after returning to 120hz, the brightness returned. Have you already imagined how I looked sitting at the monitor? Right like this.
https://relembramentos.files.wordpress. ... 308&zoom=2
This was an excellent real-time indicator of how unstable the system was. It took about a week before I gave up. :lol:
But I can say with confidence that lowering the DPC reduced the number of flashes. This is partly, but not 100% related.
daviddave1 wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 07:39
Try the New Windows server 2022 build if you into low dpc latency. I have a average of 4.90μs on it. Tested with Latencymon. Only smalldown side is that in Apex Legends you cannot get exclusive fullscreen cause u cannot edit the registry for Apex.
Really excellent optimization, 4.90μs in Apex Legends. Earlier, I was interested in the dpc topic. And the average value when playing league of legends is about 12μs. New processors and RAM does the trick.
There is a lot of useful information on the forums for overclockers. ;)
Last edited by 1000WATT on 27 Jul 2022, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

daviddave1
Posts: 382
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 17:43

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by daviddave1 » 27 Jul 2022, 17:45

1000WATT wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 13:20
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 23:17
This stuff mainly becomes visible when MPRTs are less than the jitter error margin, so you need ultra-low MPRTs (e.g. 500Hz monitors or strobed monitors) in order to show milliseconds-league jitter that is normally invisible on 60Hz displays.

Jitter smaller than MPRT is usually lost in the MPRT motion blur, which is why a 3ms stutter is invisible at 60fps but very visible at 500fps (or when impulse-driven like a CRT at sub-3ms MPRT).
Over three years ago.
Scenario.
vrr+mbr (benq)144hz - vrr+ulmb (nvidia)165hz
The brightest backlight in strobe mode was at 120 hz. And as a result, the limitation in rtss is also 120hz.
At the moment of frame time instability, the monitor exceeded 120hz, the backlight dimmed at that moment, and after returning to 120hz, the brightness returned. Have you already imagined how I looked sitting at the monitor? Right like this.
https://relembramentos.files.wordpress. ... 308&zoom=2
This was an excellent real-time indicator of how unstable the system was. It took about a week before I gave up. :lol:
But I can say with confidence that lowering the DPC reduced the number of flashes. This is partly, but not 100% related.
daviddave1 wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 07:39
Try the New Windows server 2022 build if you into low dpc latency. I have a average of 4.90μs on it. Tested with Latencymon. Only smalldown side is that in Apex Legends you cannot get exclusive fullscreen cause u cannot edit the registry for Apex.
Really excellent optimization, 4.90μs in Apex Legends. Earlier, I was interested in the dps topic. And the average value when playing league of legends is about 12μs. New processors and RAM does the trick.
There is a lot of useful information on the forums for overclockers. ;)
I get 4.90μs avarage just running Windows Server. :D did not tested it with Apex.
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

DPRTMELR
Posts: 165
Joined: 12 Apr 2022, 13:42

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by DPRTMELR » 27 Jul 2022, 19:14

There are some methods to switch between GUI mode and Core mode (command line), via PowerShell. Theoretically you can install all your games with full GUI first, then uninstall the GUI to remove its overhead completely, and call it a day. But I have not personally tested that.
I came to find out this is no longer supported in latest windows server after 2019 :(

I could probably launch browsers and other stuffs on core mode with some help of google, but not a chance for steam and anything else.

-edit
identical settings, fps_max 500, staring out mirage window on a dallas server with 14~17 people at the time.

w10 servers - just drivers installed, double clicked existing steam.exe
w10 servers.png
w10 servers.png (84.6 KiB) Viewed 3528 times
w10 pro - some tweaks here and there (nothing hardcore like I would do on w7, just disabled background stuffs)
w10 pro.png
w10 pro.png (88.95 KiB) Viewed 3528 times
I am not sure if I am ready to try and fix every god damn program that gives me compatibility problems but
I think I am gonna cross over even if it's placebo from the clean windows install because even if it's a placebo it seems like I am due for a windows reinstall D: and faceit anticheat is playing nice as well.

actually playing some deathmatch and double clicking to open firefox on boot, responsiveness is real enough to make me not upset for wiping the disk with windows 7 install. highly recommended if anybody is about to do a fresh restart.


-edit2
w10 system latency
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (59.69 KiB) Viewed 3190 times

-edit3 oops power settings were on balanced.. which inflated reported highest dpc but it game fps should be more or less the same.. (too lazy xd)
Last edited by DPRTMELR on 29 Jul 2022, 23:19, edited 5 times in total.
Most adults need 7-8 hours of sleep each night. - US FDA

olofsson_tom
Posts: 26
Joined: 11 Sep 2021, 18:55

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by olofsson_tom » 28 Jul 2022, 03:41

Wanted to give server 2022 a try so followed fr33thys guide on youtube, his optimization pack and bought a 30 euro key. Also disabled memory compression, scheduled in emptystandbylist every 5 minutes, disabledynamictick yes and EnablePreemption/CoalescingTimerInterval regedit entrys as per other youtuber recommendations.
These are the results after like an hour latencymon in idle:
Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 259,90
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 1,698938

Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 1,70
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernellägesdrivrutin för Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0,000006
Driver with highest ISR total time: Wdf01000.sys - Kernellägesdrivrutin för Framework Runtime, Microsoft Corporation

Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 264,780
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: ntoskrnl.exe - NT Kernel & System, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0,010373
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: nvlddmkm.sys - NVIDIA Windows Kernel Mode Driver, Version 516.59 , NVIDIA Corporation

Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults 37266
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 31188
Number of processes hit: 30

Are these results good? Do you have any other recommended tweaks to further improve the system?

1000WATT
Posts: 391
Joined: 22 Jul 2018, 05:44

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by 1000WATT » 28 Jul 2022, 08:39

olofsson_tom wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 03:41
Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults 37266
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 31188
Number of processes hit: 30

Are these results good? Do you have any other recommended tweaks to further improve the system?
:) turn off Windows Defender
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

1000WATT
Posts: 391
Joined: 22 Jul 2018, 05:44

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by 1000WATT » 28 Jul 2022, 08:52

I could be wrong. fr33thys has been inspiring the public for several years with various settings of timer systems.
What gave rise to a lot of people endlessly arguing on this topic. On different internet platforms.
In the end, he said that "it's better to leave the default system timers". But the "sectarians of timers" did not disappear. :D
Pleased everyone. Sat on 2 chairs. Of course, when the audience is larger, it is easier to advertise and sell the product.
But in spite of all this, I'm glad that his channel exists, as he draws attention to the topic of input delay. 8-)
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

1000WATT
Posts: 391
Joined: 22 Jul 2018, 05:44

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by 1000WATT » 28 Jul 2022, 09:00

daviddave1 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 17:45
I get 4.90μs avarage just running Windows Server. :D did not tested it with Apex.
Sorry, translation difficulties. 4.90μs on desktop, good result. In any case, few have the same result.
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

olofsson_tom
Posts: 26
Joined: 11 Sep 2021, 18:55

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by olofsson_tom » 28 Jul 2022, 10:37

1000WATT wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 08:39
olofsson_tom wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 03:41
Process with highest pagefault count: msmpeng.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults 37266
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 31188
Number of processes hit: 30

Are these results good? Do you have any other recommended tweaks to further improve the system?
:) turn off Windows Defender
Yes, this did indeed improve everything a little bit overall. Thanks! If anyone has any more tips you are more than welcome to share :)

olofsson_tom
Posts: 26
Joined: 11 Sep 2021, 18:55

Re: Windows Server has less CPU lag [Lower DPC Latency]

Post by olofsson_tom » 28 Jul 2022, 10:42

1000WATT wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 08:52
I could be wrong. fr33thys has been inspiring the public for several years with various settings of timer systems.
What gave rise to a lot of people endlessly arguing on this topic. On different internet platforms.
In the end, he said that "it's better to leave the default system timers". But the "sectarians of timers" did not disappear. :D
Pleased everyone. Sat on 2 chairs. Of course, when the audience is larger, it is easier to advertise and sell the product.
But in spite of all this, I'm glad that his channel exists, as he draws attention to the topic of input delay. 8-)
Idk maybe. Feels like with the way his channel is heading is that he wants easy to use pain-free guides that fit everyone and maybe messing with timers could help some and hurt some others. Besides, he seems to share all his tweaks for free so you dont need to buy his services, unless you want to spare time or if you just really dont know much about anything besides launching your game.

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