Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Aug 2022, 23:50

Eonds wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 10:06
Vocaleyes wrote:
11 Aug 2022, 06:53
“No such thing as muscle memory”…. Le sigh…

Used to get mad at these comments, but after 8 years you just have to face the fact some people don’t know better.

He completely ignored the fact I mentioned regarding laptop touchpad being affected and continued spouting the same bs he read somewhere else.
It's not muscle memory it's motor memory/fine motor skills. Some people are used to lag, some can notice it causing them to lose focus (me).
While not used in scientific journals, the terminology "muscle memory" is culturally appropriate in the esports community -- so it's not worth terminologysplaining the esports community here when the term is already so entrenched. English is weird.

It's best to focus on what they meant, rather than correcting on semantics or terminology.

Around here, the definition of "muscle memory" (an allowed phrase on Blur Busters Forums, given Blur Busters is a metaphorical pickaxe/shovels supplier of the esports gold rush, and need to be a very helpful) it refers to is the aim training memory that is so precisely trained in aim timing, that even a 1ms change to latency can throw people off. For example, 2000 pixels/sec at 10ms lag is 20 pixel offset (2000px/sec * 0.010sec = 20px).

But if lag changes to 15ms, the offset becomes 30 pixels (2000px/sec * 0.015sec = 30px). Which can miss the bullseye in a sideways moving target (like a distance headshot). So lag variances are evil to muscle memory.

In my country, specifically, in my culture, the term "muscle memory" refers to a fixed-latency aim training memory. If lag increases/decreases, that aim training memory is shot and needs to be retrained at the new latency.

Chief Blur Buster's final word: "muscle memory" is valid lingo on these forums, and simply refers to a aim training memory that's pre-trained at a specific latency, and is "thrown off" by a latency change (net decrease or net increase).

Be noted that latency changes may include
- absolute latency
- sampling latency (refresh rate changes / frame rate changes)
- scanout latency (the time differential between first and last pixel)
- sync technology latency changes (e.g. sync technology switching events such as framerates exiting VRR range, or the sudden increase/decrease of framebuffer backpressure)
- Internal game engine latency changes (e.g. multithreaded processing events)
- Latency compensation behaviors in engines
- Network latency changes
- etc, etc, etc.

This is less of an issue in LAN esports stadiums than out in the open Internet, where you've got the evils of the erratic latency of the Internet (and the ugly black-box latency compensation algorithms in many engines)

This all screws around with muscle memory (aka pre-trained aim training optimized to a specific known latency)

Toeing a bridge between the researcher/scientific community AND the esports community requires more diplomacy than terminology arguments... For now, set as mental search-replace filter accordingly and let the terminology be.
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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Vocaleyes » 14 Aug 2022, 23:54

Eonds wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 10:04
Vocaleyes wrote:
09 Aug 2022, 00:56
8 years old and still unsolved.. https://youtu.be/8-cYb6Wk4FU
Anything but scientific
Not everyone is a scientist. You have book smarts, apparently, but I have applied experience.
But surely even you must see that if a bunch of perfect strangers are displaying the same symptoms such as the one displayed in the video, countless forum posts on windows forum which are dead ended and killed off usually with the generically repeated “SFC And DISM”, which while may be helpful in some cases, not this one.

So you keep doing your science, and I’ll stick to what I know. Which is 25+ years of HEAVY gaming experience and an acutely developed sense of muscle memory.

I do however find it amusing that you’re happy to comment these self indulgent cryptic messages,which provide no straight answer nor solution to a majority of problems, in the future, spare me. Thank you.
Last edited by Vocaleyes on 15 Aug 2022, 01:17, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Aug 2022, 23:58

Vocaleyes wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 23:54
Eonds wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 10:04
Vocaleyes wrote:
09 Aug 2022, 00:56
8 years old and still unsolved.. https://youtu.be/8-cYb6Wk4FU
Anything but scientific
Not everyone is a scientist. You have book smarts, apparently, but I have applied experience.
Sometimes terminology around here is not "by the book" (e.g. kosher among unviersity Ph.D) but we permit widely-used off-book terminology around here, as long as it is sufficiently canon, widely used in a non-confusing way (within the esports community), and has a very prevailing well-known definition in the community.

From time to time, I'll be happy to be the Terminology Translator around here.

The phrase "muscle memory" is not used in scientific journals for sure, but it's so widespread in the esports community, that I prefer to respond with a disambiguation / explanation, rather than a distraction (e.g. terminology correction).
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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Vocaleyes » 15 Aug 2022, 00:05

I’ve personally always disliked the need for pedantic terminology in language, it defeats the main objective of language, communication, and mainly serves a divisive purpose imo.

When all is said and done, think the next wave of life on earth will understand English or more likely the cave paintings?

Completely off point from me, but still thought I’d share a pointless thought.

But yeah.. this mouse behaviour is a symptom and has become so normalised, perhaps intentionally perhaps not, but too many patterns suggest there’s awareness of what’s going on, but no solve. For example, why remove mouse troubleshooting ONLY, yet keyboard remains? Stuff like that, but most importantly it’s the muscle memory.

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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 15 Aug 2022, 00:08

English is one of the weirdest languages on the planet. 'Nuff said.

Also, this forum, is a very weird bridge between the esports community (e.g. General / Latency) and the researcher/science community (e.g. Area 51).
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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Vocaleyes » 15 Aug 2022, 00:16

Yeah, it’s also party the reason why I am anxious to post on here. Nothing more enjoyable and welcoming than sharing information as best as per your abilities before being noped, even asking before testing what an appropriate methodology would be to avoid upsetting anyone with more hardware/ software knowledge than myself didn’t really help, but hey.. that’s why I’m here. Not a genius, not super hung, but providing any piece to this puzzle that may be relevant.

Thank you for stepping in @chief and not focusing on the wording, but the question.
Last edited by Vocaleyes on 15 Aug 2022, 00:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Vocaleyes » 15 Aug 2022, 00:32

For the record, this cursor behaviour whilst not scientific, is still wrong.

Am working with a dev team of a prestigious company in the UK which obviously I’m not going to name, but all of which have seen the same issue I have and are currently testing. There may be a hit, where older gen consoles aren’t showing this issue, but will find out conclusively by Wednesday regarding that, aside from that, the term muscle memory should never have been a thing nor still remain to be a thing unless mouse moved CONSISTENTLY, that is how it is developed, rather like a habit. Repeated 21 times, to make it permanent. If the mouse tracking has always been as inconsistent as this, then the term muscle memory would have never had a place in the gaming world.

But it does.

Not science, but logic.

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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Kyouki » 15 Aug 2022, 02:11

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
15 Aug 2022, 00:08
Also, this forum, is a very weird bridge between the esports community (e.g. General / Latency) and the researcher/science community (e.g. Area 51).
Can confirm that I am indeed a weird mix of the in-between both. Having started my interest from esport and growing more into the researcher or science portion (to also aid my esport/help others understand)

I love your posts Chief. Thanks.

On-topic-ish:
Can indeed confirm that playing myself and going from the 165hz casual gamer, while trying esport games at the time as well but always found myself playing terrible/miss information in my aim to compete. At some point decided to try using ULMB on 120hz on that 165hz monitor (PG279Q) and started to notice I was able to track much much better overtime of using it while I thought of it as a gimmick at first.
That interest led me to investigate the modes or possible options as well as learning more and more about displays.
Figured out why I always had the craves for tweaking systems, getting the most optimal performance. This is indeed like Chief once posted that we do get into territories where we start notice the sub 1ms lag/latency differences. Response times on monitors, strobe tunes, system latency, network latency and all the variances of those. Even EMI/Power appears to be impactful which was eye-opening to me and a new topic I would love to dive in to.

After purchasing the 360hz monitor (with 240hz ULMB) it started to creep even more onto me and I feel today that with all the knowledge and understanding in which scenarios I would use which display tech and I like to educate other people about them as well as I find that Gsync (freesync)/ulmb (any form of blur reduction) is severely underrated.
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 16 Aug 2022, 20:35

Kyouki wrote:
15 Aug 2022, 02:11
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
15 Aug 2022, 00:08
Also, this forum, is a very weird bridge between the esports community (e.g. General / Latency) and the researcher/science community (e.g. Area 51).
Can confirm that I am indeed a weird mix of the in-between both. Having started my interest from esport and growing more into the researcher or science portion (to also aid my esport/help others understand)

I love your posts Chief. Thanks.

On-topic-ish:
Can indeed confirm that playing myself and going from the 165hz casual gamer, while trying esport games at the time as well but always found myself playing terrible/miss information in my aim to compete. At some point decided to try using ULMB on 120hz on that 165hz monitor (PG279Q) and started to notice I was able to track much much better overtime of using it while I thought of it as a gimmick at first.
That interest led me to investigate the modes or possible options as well as learning more and more about displays.
Figured out why I always had the craves for tweaking systems, getting the most optimal performance. This is indeed like Chief once posted that we do get into territories where we start notice the sub 1ms lag/latency differences. Response times on monitors, strobe tunes, system latency, network latency and all the variances of those. Even EMI/Power appears to be impactful which was eye-opening to me and a new topic I would love to dive in to.

After purchasing the 360hz monitor (with 240hz ULMB) it started to creep even more onto me and I feel today that with all the knowledge and understanding in which scenarios I would use which display tech and I like to educate other people about them as well as I find that Gsync (freesync)/ulmb (any form of blur reduction) is severely underrated.
Fantastic! I love meeting researchers, even if they're anonymous.

To every new researcher, I love reminding them to avoid making assumptions based on today's unfortunate refresh rate incrementalism - You should know about the geometric-upgrade problem of refresh rates and frame rates -- where human-visibility needs something like 2x-4x upgrades such as
60 -> 120 -> 240 -> 480 -> 1000 -> 2000 -> 4000 (until the vanishing point of diminishing curve of returns)
or
60 -> 240 -> 1000 -> 4000 (fps=Hz)

esports players will see differences as small as 1.1-1.5x while average users may need 4x (e.g. 240Hz vs 1000Hz is easily visible to my grandma, like the temporal equivalent of the spatial geometric curve VHS-vs-4K, unlike VHS-vs-DVD). We are (~2024) gradually building a 4K or 8K 1000fps 1000Hz demonstration that is possible with today's technology, perhaps to "Douglas Engelbart The Demo"-ize the knowledge of the refresh rate curve. We found creative unorthodox solutions for all the technology bottlenecks -- from production to display -- and are weaving them all together like 100 different brilliant TestUFO/BlurBusters inventions into one.

Also, 240Hz-vs-360Hz is like a 1.1x difference not 1.5x difference, because high-frequency jitter (VSYNC OFF, game engine flaw, microjitter, fps-mismatch-Hz, etc) blends into blur like fast-vibrating guitar string, as well as the LCD GtG throttling differences between Hz. So 240Hz-vs-360Hz conclusions should not be misinterpreted with this knowledge of error margins. 240Hz-vs-360hz is only an exact 1.5x blur difference at perfect GtG=0ms and stutter error=0ms.

Also, usefully need to be familiar with the Vicious Cycle Effect where higher resolutions and FOV amplify refresh rate limitations. I am slow at creating new explainer articles, so some of these are piecemeal all over the place.

Certain stratospheric refresh rates are crapshoot unimportant on a VHS-resolution display, but supremely important on 8K 0ms-GtG displays (e.g. laser, DLP, OLED, MicroLED) -- and it is unfortunate how LCD GtG throttles differences between Hz unlike the prototype displays I am seeing.

If you ever use Blur Busters inspirations, please find a way to cite us! Over the longer term, I'm currently looking to try to create TestUFO DOI's because many papers are starting to cite TestUFO links (and certain Blur Busters articles). Over 100 research papers have obvious Blur Busters inspirations, with only approx 30-35 of them citing my name or TestUFO or Blur Busters (about 20% academia papers, 80% corporate papers) at www.blurbusters.com/research-papers

By now, you've probably seen my simplified "Cole Notes" explainer articles at www.blurbusters.com/area51

I am totally happy to vet flaws in research papers, so you are welcome to back-channel contact me at mark [at] blurbusters.com ... I review research for free and commentary on potential error margins many researchers overlooked.

I only mention all this, only simply because many researchers still accidentally make Hz-limit assumptions (the oft-quoted-by-amateurs 255Hz fighter pilot paper only tests one attribute, and the 500Hz mentioned by Oxford university researcher, etc) forgetting some scientific variables I am familiar with that they have overlooked (e.g. making MPRT in milliseconds less than jitter error in milliseconds, for a specific kind of test). And certain tests don't force eye-tracking (e.g. trying to read tiny moving text) -- so people don't notice motion blur while others do, because of differences between eye-tracking behaviours in different humans in different content, but more than >90% people suddenly see 240Hz-vs-1000Hz when I force eye-tracking scrolling-text-identification tests, etc (it's a whopping 4x motion blur difference, after all, 4 pixels of motion blur per frame at 240Hz is a slowly scrolling 1000 pixels/sec on an 8K 240Hz display, unlike yesteryear VGA resolution displays where it was too fast to eye-track) -- so content and job can create major differences in Hz-difference tests.

Even jitter is a major error margin now in these refresh rate stratospheres, since 70 single-pixel microjitters per second at 360Hz blends into +1 extra pixel motion blur (on top of GtG blur and MPRT blur), etc. -- where stutter during stratospheric refresh rates is so fast (beyond flicker fusion threshold) that even wider-amplitude stutter is now generating extra display persistence motion blur blur on top of existing GtG & MPRT blur (as MPRT tests only measures regular pixel steps, without factoring in the fact that high-frequency stutters is effectively worse MPRT -- the regular staircase of the sample and hold effect becoming an erratic staircases due to non-consistent pixel-steps per frame, with the bigger steps becoming the new motion blur weak link). Not to mention that legacy measurement standards have very weak cutoff thresholds. Motion blur below GtG10% / MPRT10% and beyond GtG90% / MPRT90% is still human visible (so VESA misses the 20% slowest portion of human visible blur that can be more millimeters long than the 10%-90% obvious blur on the same said display) -- so those 1ms GtG/MPRT advertisements are not always trusted anymore by today's tech-savvy audience. So many error margins are overlooked by today's researchers!

Also, while many tolerate flicker, Blur Busters is a big fan of eliminating motion blur without strobing. But it would take 3333fps 3333Hz for a fully flickerless display of any kind to match the motion clarity of an Oculus Quest 2 (0.3ms MPRT100% strobe pulses). So we have a long technological engineering curve when Quest 2 VR headsets currently have less than 1/10th the motion blur of a non-strobed 360Hz monitor...

I'll be resuming writing content for Area 51, including converting some of the best forum posts I've made in the last 12 months into Area51-worthy articles -- like a sequel to the 1000 Hz Journey article that has relevant content for researchers of various elements of this refresh rate race -- to help vet research for overlooked / missed variables.
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Re: Changing Processor State Greatly affects mouse sensitivity/ lag

Post by Kyouki » 17 Aug 2022, 02:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
15 Aug 2022, 00:08
[...]
Thank you for the valuable and interesting insight reply!

Love everything you've done so far and I have been trying anonymously and now with a registered account to try and stalk many of your posts and articles. They are honestly amazing reads for me, very interesting and I love to relay that information to other people within the gaming space.

Eager to continue learning more, love how you called me a researcher as I do like to something refer myself to such. Love chatting with people about tech in general, I am doing on the sides also interest into game engine's and performance metrics for said applications so I get the combined or the whole pipeline learned. I've gone through hardware and now finally learning onto the software side and the final end result on-screen at the display.

3333fps/hz :shock: damn.. :o

Despite loving ULMB/strobing tech, would indeed love to see more at the higher refresh rate range w/o needing for strobing. Tempted to purchase the blur busters approved monitors just for the sake of testing and experiencing a better tuned monitor for strobing. Only sad it is only at 1080p. I do loved my older 1440p monitor and kind of really miss that as a daily now on my 360hz 1080p panel. I was looking to getting a 1440p@240hz (or higher) refresh rate monitor before, but they often lacked a BFI / strobing technology for me to use or enjoy. That tech alone for me made my competitive gaming side fun again.

The urges for more framerate is also still there, primarily because it is so enjoyable when its on par within your refresh rates and I do wish more games took better notice of other methods of achieving better framerate for their end users. Vulkan API come to mind for instance, being much better frame pacing, frame times and overall resource use is much smoother and nicer. DOOM Eternal being one of those enjoyable examples. On the side I also invest time in some beta programs for games - or are some internal tester for some games, always trying to advertise or promote the use of better technologies for displays, rendering, graphics, etc. Trying for myself to understanding swapchain technology, MPO, and all the different display modes within game graphics api.

Speaking of tech implementation's, one of the worst implementations (personally) is TAA/DLSS and any kind of temporal effects. This truly feels like a extra smearing or blur technique that is just absolute bane of existence for anything motion clarity.

What are your thoughts on this?
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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