System Latency

[Eonds]

I can't exactly put my finger on what the issue is. I've always had input lag since I've used a PC within the past few years. Depending on the OS it could change pretty drastically. As much as I know about systems I can't pinpoint it. In my experience the server versions of windows are significantly more delayed not only on desktop but in-game. This could be due to changes in the kernel/scheduling/etc.


Either way the OS plays a massive role. I can switch back and forth between the two and it's night and day. I know just about every tweak there is and yes it helps a lot but there's still issues. I've removed micro code, insane cooling, highest end equipment, and more. The one thing I haven't done is change my GPU. It doesn't over heat or anything of that sort. I have extensive experience to say the least. My temperatures are all great. The latency i've been experiencing was relatively the same between both systems ryzen & intel. Intel was slightly better as there's more you can tweak and what not. I've tried different mice, keyboards, displays, etc. So tweaks are 100% an advantage but in my opinion if stock is very unplayable I'm willing to bet/believe there's a bigger issue. Stock for me is literally awful. Sure I could have extreme sensitivity to latency (could be true but there's other symptoms). Characters tend to move insanely fast on any game, sometimes I feel as if there's insane stutter/blur to the point where I can't see (i get used to it). I watch my gameplay back on a recording via OBS and it's insanely smooth but in real life it's nothing like it. I've adjusted my monitor settings etc. I'm not your average forum dweller looking for a fix. I'm just laying out my experience. I've played at the highest/high levels in most competitive games, fortnite, rocket league, Apex Legends, any cod, and more. It's not a skill issue, as I can still climb ranks due to game sense and other factors. The main problem is I don't see a point in playing when I'm directly hindered by this constant input lag experience where my mouse cursor / weapon/ whatever doesn't reach the destination fast enough when I make the in real life movement. My brain picks it up and it destroys my aim/focus. Sometimes on top of the latency it feels like I have mouse acceleration or just inconsistency.

I'm currently using no case ( i have used a case before). I only have one monitor, one mouse, one keyboard, one pair of headphones, one mic plugged in at a time. My mic seems to poll @ 1000hz, my mouse I have it set to 1000hz right now, and my keyboard im assuming also polls @ 1000hz (pretty sure). I doubt it's the issue but hey I figured I'd mention since I do know about polling rate, weird usb behaviors, overloading the mcu. My motherboard has a realtek 2.5gb nic and feels pretty shit but whatever. Most people feel an improvement once they switch to a intel based NIC (thought i'd mention it). Network, input & motion clarity are all seemingly affected which I may be leaning more towards polling issues/usb issues. It could line up with the behavior between the two OS's. If the Chief or anyone else would like to chime in go for it. But before I end this post, please don't comment with "UR AC IS DIRTY BLAH BLAH BLAH". It's all filtered and converted from AC > DC and it shouldn't matter that much. It could be EMI but like I said let's not jump the gun. I would say there's time where my game has felt weirdly and oddly smooth around AM times as if someone just plugged in a 1000hz display. Just like I said weird behavior, MSI boards are notoriously awful when it comes to bios bullshit (i've personally had plenty of odd shit happen with overclocking and posting). I've tried spread spectrum settings and more but typically this tends to almost be worse because it makes me feel like I'm playing in the past (quite literally network wise). I've adjusted slew rates, differential clocks, switching frequencies for the VRMS, different load lines (LLC7 is the best for my board measured via scope).

Now that my ramble is done (still read it, could be useful), that's my experience and i've tried a lot of things and gained a technical understanding of just about everything with hardware but still have issues.


UPDATE: with all of this said, I think the OS has a lot to do with it. There's settings within windows that drastically clear up issues to the point where it's basically fixed.

UPDATE 2: There's a bug within many motherboards & all windows versions that causes extreme desync. Currently working on a fix with microsoft. This desync causes every aspect of your system to work incorrectly.

Right now my setup is
i7-10700k
z490i unify
2 x 8 4000 14-15-15 (xmp profile (my oc is different)
GTX 1070 Ti
RM850X 2021 edition
ASUS VG259QM 280hz / BenQ zowie XL2411P
Apex Pro TKL/Corsair k65 mini
Razer 8khz/Starlight S-12/logitech G pro wired
Samson Q2U (usb)

[Thatweirdinputlag]

Feels like this could literally remain a mystery. All I know is, upon the 2 times that something to the grounding line have changed, I've experienced good results. The first time a separate ground line was installed for the PC and the monitor alone gave me about 5 days of lag-free gameplay. Then the 2nd time when I took out the old earthing rod and installed a longer one.

The main problem where I live is electricians are just extremely unqualified, and the ones who are not, can only be found operating rather bigger projects than just an apartment. However, I did find a company that does full site testing, I called them, explained to them that I need a good electricity check and they sent me 2 graduate engineers that probably learned how electricity functions from books that were written back in the 1980s. However, they had a Ground Resistance Clamp Meter "Thankfully", I asked them to test both the building's main grounding line and the one that I installed for the PC. Both lines gave an OL indicator which is basically a resistance above the maximum range of that meter. I'm not sure what was their meter rated for, but regardless, I'm changing that damn rod and will do a proper installation this time! Unless someone here has already done that, and might save me the extra cash.

Other aspects they tested were things like cables resistance, continuity, and whether the live and neutral are touching at any point. Mind you, if at any point in time, the live and the neutral came into contact, the breaker for that circuit would go down in a fraction of a second, if it didn't "something was wrong with it" then the main breaker in the panel will, if that was also broken, then "the one before the electricity meter" will go down. So why did they do the test you ask me? 1980's books.

They also tested for electromagnetic interference, outside, lol! Literally the guy went straight into the balcony and pointed that meter into the street. I almost face palmed! They didn't even bring a power analyzer and when I asked why, they told me single phase systems don't need a power analyzer, unless you're experiencing led bulbs burning every day or electronics failing regularly. Which to be fair, I wasn't. Today, I'm $220 poorer than 2 days ago. Yep that was the cost, and they offered me to bring a power analyzer and leave it for a whopping 24hr period hooked to my main panel to analyze the power for transients, harmonics, voltage irregularities etc, and that would only cost me an extra $280, fantastic. I declined that once in a life time offer.

I will check back with regular updates after installing the new grounding system. To be honest, I think I'm cutting the cord on this whole issue if it did not work. A proper grounding system might set me back another $300! My Z390 system is too old now, but still strong enough to last me a couple more years until hopefully my love for gaming dies with it.

[DPRTMELR]

tl;dr no real help here, just random thoughts. dont need to reply, i aint fighting nobody.

I watch my gameplay back on a recording via OBS and it's insanely smooth but in real life it's nothing like it.

This will always always be the case. You could record yourself play in 60fps and it would be the smoothest thing ever (well not anymore but I guess recording it on 144/240 etc. would be the new smoothest thing ever).

Assuming the issue here isn't something you can pick out easily by spotting the reds in some charts or graphs off of some tests, recording it with obs won't do anything (Even network twitching will be shown on obs recording contrary to most people here thinks, while maintaining overall smooth butterness). You gotta record it externally in order to spot the spooky shit once you are there (phone or 2nd pc/capture card setup?)

I can't exactly put my finger on what the issue is. I've always had input lag since I've used a PC within the past few years.

Breaking down this sentence (just this sentence alone, your problem could be anything obvsly):
There was windows 7 smoothness, then there was pre w10 1703 smoothness. then there's pre w10 21h2 smoothness. oh and there's 10th gen latency lotto too. .

Which means the best option would be something like 10900k generally improved oc capability in general and 2 extra cores, or if you have access to one of those "golden sample" 9900k that can do 4600mhz+ ram would be ideal instead of something that's not 10900k on 10th gen. But these shouldn't bother you as much because whatever delay there is, will be consistent enough that you will just get used to it after sitting on it for couple of days.

Also windows server 2022 is the best thing I've used since the second-to-last windows 7 install I had before. I think you give it a try if you are serious about all the commitments you've made on this post and not just venting frustrations.

2 x 8 (my oc is different)

are you sure that is stable. I know you said you have different oc and I know z490/590 unify-i is a g unit for ram overclocking but nobody really goes all out on stress testing the rams as they should. people who seem to know what they are talking about always emphasizes on subtle temperature shifts that makes or breaks the ram oc, more so than just optimizing voltages and following random formulas.

Just like I said weird behavior, MSI boards are notoriously awful when it comes to bios bullshit (i've personally had plenty of odd shit happen with overclocking and posting).

I feel like msi has more options exposed than the competitors which makes you feelgood, I think you are thinking of it as mostly BS because their ui is questionable lul.

I would say there's time where my game has felt weirdly and oddly smooth around AM times as if someone just plugged in a 1000hz display.

I used feel this as well, chucked it off to network congestion differences. But I am 99% sure (at least on my computer through my eyes when playing source2 games) it's time of the day thing based on your sleeping patterns after learning more about how my favorite game does things regarding player lagging at different degrees.

Obviously you(the person) are the biggest contributing factor when it comes to judging what's laggy and what's not laggy. Get lots of sleeps and be sure to get up and around in between rounds when you feel stiff ANYWHERE on your body.

Otherwise, I have this random/insane theory (but I am serious tho I might go back to blackbar) that maybe playing on widescreen is the contributing factor because one of your eyes would lag more than the other causing problems, maybe one gets fatigued quicker, or it ends up causing distortions depending on where you are looking at (also depending on your dominant eyes and your general posture etc.). It could also just be growing up thing, but I feel like I had more consistent ranges in skill back when I was 4:3, ie my worst was never bad enough get me flamed from anybody sensible (I am really good at 'being there but not really' and being out of sight of ragers) but now my worst gets the votekick started.

[Eonds]

tl;dr no real help here, just random thoughts. dont need to reply, i aint fighting nobody.

I watch my gameplay back on a recording via OBS and it's insanely smooth but in real life it's nothing like it.

This will always always be the case. You could record yourself play in 60fps and it would be the smoothest thing ever (well not anymore but I guess recording it on 144/240 etc. would be the new smoothest thing ever).

Assuming the issue here isn't something you can pick out easily by spotting the reds in some charts or graphs off of some tests, recording it with obs won't do anything (Even network twitching will be shown on obs recording contrary to most people here thinks, while maintaining overall smooth butterness). You gotta record it externally in order to spot the spooky shit once you are there (phone or 2nd pc/capture card setup?)

I can't exactly put my finger on what the issue is. I've always had input lag since I've used a PC within the past few years.

Breaking down this sentence (just this sentence alone, your problem could be anything obvsly):
There was windows 7 smoothness, then there was pre w10 1703 smoothness. then there's pre w10 21h2 smoothness. oh and there's 10th gen latency lotto too. .

Which means the best option would be something like 10900k generally improved oc capability in general and 2 extra cores, or if you have access to one of those "golden sample" 9900k that can do 4600mhz+ ram would be ideal instead of something that's not 10900k on 10th gen. But these shouldn't bother you as much because whatever delay there is, will be consistent enough that you will just get used to it after sitting on it for couple of days.

Also windows server 2022 is the best thing I've used since the second-to-last windows 7 install I had before. I think you give it a try if you are serious about all the commitments you've made on this post and not just venting frustrations.

2 x 8 (my oc is different)

are you sure that is stable. I know you said you have different oc and I know z490/590 unify-i is a g unit for ram overclocking but nobody really goes all out on stress testing the rams as they should. people who seem to know what they are talking about always emphasizes on subtle temperature shifts that makes or breaks the ram oc, more so than just optimizing voltages and following random formulas.

I've removed micro code

This is more geared towards nerds and their linx gflops or superpi scores jerkoff competitions, at least that's what "they" say. you should revert minor things that you know aren't helping to get rid of the variables, not more what if's.

Just like I said weird behavior, MSI boards are notoriously awful when it comes to bios bullshit (i've personally had plenty of odd shit happen with overclocking and posting).

I feel like msi has more options exposed than the competitors which makes you feelgood, I think you are thinking of it as mostly BS because their ui is questionable lul.

I would say there's time where my game has felt weirdly and oddly smooth around AM times as if someone just plugged in a 1000hz display.

I used feel this as well, chucked it off to network congestion differences. But I am 99% sure (at least on my computer through my eyes when playing source2 games) it's time of the day thing based on your sleeping patterns after learning more about how my favorite game does things regarding player lagging at different degrees.

Obviously you(the person) are the biggest contributing factor when it comes to judging what's laggy and what's not laggy. Get lots of sleeps and be sure to get up and around in between rounds when you feel stiff ANYWHERE on your body.

And remember that people are going to lag differently in your games so generous crosshair placements in general, instead of super tight shots that you know you can do in theory (which won't mean shit if the end results you 0 enemy 1)

Otherwise, I have this random theory that maybe playing on widescreen is the contributing factor because one of your eyes would lag more than the other causing problems, maybe one gets fatigued quicker, or it ends up causing distortions depending on where you are looking at (also depending on your dominant eyes and your general posture etc.). It could just be growing up thing, but I feel like I had more consistent ranges in skill back when I was 4:3, ie my worst was never bad enough get me flamed from anybody sensible (I am really good at 'being there but not really' and being out of sight of ragers) but now my worst gets the votekick started lul

My whole system seems to be affected. Upon further investigation into the biology if this building I live and how my ethernet cable was routed to my modem it's positioned next to 5 smart meters and a few AC's. My cable is also unshielded on the inside and has plastic ends.

Fbzx1QgX0AEfuwb.jpg (20.48 KiB) Viewed 4595 times

There's that & here's a packet loss test (I could of adjusted the latency tolerance for packet delays to measure more retransmissions (ECC) but I already know it's insanity. So unfortunately I experience both upload & download packet loss & constant latency jitter spikes. I contacted my ISP and said there's nothing wrong on their end. So what I did was buy a properly shielded cable with metal ends and I will update if it fixes anything. I repeat the packet loss test over 20x and it always came back with similar results. Some hours of the day it's better. Once you take the network out of the equation, when I'm offline (still have the cable plugged in though) my input will randomly have this moment of extreme slow down almost. Like the data which was supposed to be sent in that moment got distorted. There's times where my input is flawless (talking about rocket league specifically). As sick as I am of hearing a bunch of bullspit on this forum, there's still truth to a lot of things here. I figured I'd make a post and document what changes i've tried and what It actually could be.

If this doesn't do anything I'll likely build a shielded room that I can put my system inside and test. This is in no specific order but I'm also acquiring expensive tools to measure this interference that's cucking. I'm very good at video games like I said so it's not a coping mechanism. I'm practically 0.01% of the gaming population in any competitive game I've played. This isn't a troll post either. I speak fluent English and I'm trying to fucking get to the bottom of this bullshit.

[Eonds]

Feels like this could literally remain a mystery. All I know is, upon the 2 times that something to the grounding line have changed, I've experienced good results. The first time a separate ground line was installed for the PC and the monitor alone gave me about 5 days of lag-free gameplay. Then the 2nd time when I took out the old earthing rod and installed a longer one.

[...]

I will check back with regular updates after installing the new grounding system. To be honest, I think I'm cutting the cord on this whole issue if it did not work. A proper grounding system might set me back another $300! My Z390 system is too old now, but still strong enough to last me a couple more years until hopefully my love for gaming dies with it.

I think it's something more simple. I think the whole dirty AC things is kind of silly since we convert AC to DC all the time and filter it. I'm more worried about the noise that these switch mode devices generate and where that travels, how far it travels, etc. There's also a cell tower within less than 1 mile of me (way closer than a mile). My goal is to eliminate things activating error correction, and straight up causing errors because I can feel it. I know the experience that I feel is accurate to which type of issue it is. For example when I'm playing rocket league and I feel my input completely activate inaccurately or straight up mis a whole input I know that's interference causing ECC to activate and attempt to fix the errors. I'm more of the mind where I don't care what people think unless their opinions clearly have weight to them (opinions they have should be based on reasonable conclusions and in general evidence). Naysayers don't bother me. I know my skill isn't the issue (im the highest rank in the game I play LOL). I don't have brain lag either i'm 19 years old.....

[DPRTMELR]

There's also a cell tower within less than 1 mile of me (way closer than a mile).

There are metropolises with millions of people living together all packed as hell. For example Manhattan has 11 cell towers spread out across the 22.7 square miles range. If you want coverage you can't really escape the cell signals. If being close to the proximity of cell towers really does cause that much interference to modern devices, fcc would never allow it simply because of the fact that the Wall Street happens to be on the island. This really can't be the cause.

[Chief Blur Buster]

There's also a cell tower within less than 1 mile of me (way closer than a mile).

There are metropolises with millions of people living together all packed as hell. For example Manhattan has 11 cell towers spread out across the 22.7 square miles range. If you want coverage you can't really escape the cell signals. If being close to the proximity of cell towers really does cause that much interference to modern devices, well shit I haven't seen any oregan vs socal benchmarks yet so it's hard to know, but fcc would never allow it simply because of the fact that the Wall Street happens to be on the island. This really can't be the cause.

*** Wild Goose Chase To Red Herrings Alert ***

Most non-ultranearby celltowers aren't a major interference source for internal computer operation. They're more likely to interfere with their local sphere.

Example Exception 1: It can be if they're strapped to the side of an apartment tower (rather than high above you), and you've got a computer room only 2-3 feet behind the exterior wall holding a cell antenna, even if the antenna is aimed to radiate RF away from you, there may be leaks / reflections / other harmonics / induction from nearby high power supplies / inferior digital switching supplies / etc that becomes an interference.

Example Exception 2: External interference such as network interference. If cell equipment and DSL equipment are in the same carrier/utility locker that also has massive transformers inside them too, in a massive jumble that are poorly shielded and interfere with each other

But that's not the same thing as creating internal latency issues (e.g. ECC events on a USB cable).

Living in a dense city isn't necessarily always a problem -- it's the Inverse Square Law and the ultra-strong nearby sources of interference. If you live in a city of poor electrical codes and very messy infrastructure. The laundry machine or a transformer behind the wall is usuallky over a 1 million times stronger interference source than a celltower 1 mile away.

There are more interference combinations than there are atoms in the known universe -- it is hideously hard to troubleshoot, and it is a waste of time to focus on unlikely sources.

*** Wild Goose Chase To Red Herrings Alert ***

[TheKelz]

I can't exactly put my finger on what the issue is. I've always had input lag since I've used a PC within the past few years.

Breaking down this sentence (just this sentence alone, your problem could be anything obvsly):
There was windows 7 smoothness, then there was pre w10 1703 smoothness. then there's pre w10 21h2 smoothness. oh and there's 10th gen latency lotto too. .

Oh, come on. Don't make my day worse now, I have i9 10850k and don't wanna know that this CPU is contributing to the input lag.

[DPRTMELR]

Oh, come on. Don't make my day worse now, I have i9 10850k and don't wanna know that this CPU is contributing to the input lag.

that diagram only demonstrates theoretical worst case scenario and it should be the least of your worry, I was just pointing out the list of things that could have changed simply over time just in the past few years that people really don't talk about, because most people don't see it or don't care.

[x79ftw]

UPDATE: with all of this said, I think the OS has a lot to do with it. There's settings within windows that drastically clear up issues to the point where it's basically fixed.

UPDATE 2: There's a bug within many motherboards & all windows versions that causes extreme desync. Currently working on a fix with microsoft. This desync causes every aspect of your system to work incorrectly.

Right now my setup is
i7-10700k
z490i unify
2 x 8 4000 14-15-15 (xmp profile (my oc is different)
GTX 1070 Ti
RM850X 2021 edition
ASUS VG259QM 280hz / BenQ zowie XL2411P
Apex Pro TKL/Corsair k65 mini
Razer 8khz/Starlight S-12/logitech G pro wired
Samson Q2U (usb)

Did you find out what causes the desync issue? I recently obtained an i9-10900k and everything just feels like it has more latency and this is coming from X79 E5-1680 V2 which is a much older platform. There is some visual desync also it feels like my screen has some type of super fast flicker/strobing effect that gives me headache over time and i've narrowed it down to the motherboard since i can simply swap my old X79 motherboard/gpu in the system and everything is normal. Im using Windows 10 21H2 LTSC, and also tried Windows 10 1809 LTSC and Windows 7 and it doesnt help.