[Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
Post Reply
Bobo
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Jun 2018, 11:44

Re: I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Bobo » 15 Nov 2022, 15:38

I219-V is one of the worst network cards out there, simply changing the driver can greatly affect the mouse movement (for the worse).

6yToFindTheAnswer
Posts: 5
Joined: 30 Oct 2022, 20:16

[Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by 6yToFindTheAnswer » 16 Nov 2022, 22:48

Thank you guys for your interest on this topic, i'm reading everything :) Very interesting to see that so many people have the same problem as me; with exactly the same network chip (intel i219-v)... There are already at least 10 people only on this post claiming having the same issues.
Bobo wrote:
15 Nov 2022, 15:38
I219-V is one of the worst network cards out there, simply changing the driver can greatly affect the mouse movement (for the worse).
Yes it is. Ever since i bought this mobo in 2017 nothing changed (same issue ever since with all the different drivers and windows versions, etc).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 21:42
There are indeed crappy on-board Ethernet implementations, and I've sometimes found a PCIe Ethernet card to produce better results.

Other times, the Ethernet port on a motherboard is really good.

It's very motherboard dependant.
Yes, yes, yes, totally agree with you here. Found a friend with a msi Z390 having the i219-v chip, so i asked him (without any previous explanation) to unplug his ethernet cable and see if there is a difference in mouse feeling... guess what? Yep he was losing his mind, as i personally felt on my rig, he felt the same on his; huge difference in mouse movements :shock:

I bought a bunch of PCie to ethernet card and one USB-C to ethernet here are my findings :

1st card :arrow: : chip : Realtek 8168 : Very bad result overall. Mostly having huge ping spikes CONSTANTLY without much load making online gaming impossible. Didn't go further with this one.

2nd card :arrow: : chip : Realtek 8111H : Now this one is a very very good surprise, it was super stable and seems like it handles small packets very well making it a superb chip for competitive online gaming. I got 2ms less ping overall on every servers on it was a VERY stable card.

3rd card :arrow: : chip : Broadcom 5751 : Because my router have a Broadcom chip, i was curious to buy a PCIe to Ethernet with a chip from Broadcom. This chipset was very weird : it is insanely stable in downloads (minimal jitter) and as soon as you upload something it starts to jitter (8ms +) this was not present on every other chip tested so it is an isolated issue specifically to this chip. When you shoot in csgo or valorant there is a very noticeable delay between the click and the hits on the bodies (like if you play with 150ms ping)... So it is not a good chip because as soon as you start shooting (upload) it starts to slightly jitter. Also it handles big packets very well but small packets makes it jitter (wtf???)

4th :arrow: is a USB-C to Ethernet : chip : REALTEK 8153 . I don't know what dark magic went into this one but as soon as i started testing my ping was 3ms lower on every server and it never, lowest amounts of jitter in download / uploads between all the cards. Never seen such a stable chip. My download speed was 2mbp/s slower than on the other cards but i will take it everyday for the stability it provides.


In conclusion : Yes a PCIe to ethernet card solve my issue. As soon as i plug my ethernet cable to the integrated chip in my motherboard (Intel i219-v) my mouse movements are slower (like if the DPI decrease) and i can even feel it on desktop. With all that has been said before (heavy feeling in game, bad hitboxes, getting pre-shots, etc ) So having a PCIe card solve all those issue. Also you have to buy a bunch like me and test them because there are some differences between them, some are far better than others. They are not equivalent.

Also :idea: don't believe what you read on Reddit; people are writing eevrywhere that intel chips are far better and years ahead of realtek ones (not true at all) Seems like people like to repeat what they heard without having anything to back their claims... People seems to forget that Intel doesn't have such a clear and bright past in network chips history as people tend to make you believe...

yes indeed, if you don't know, there was a huge lawsuit against Intel a few years ago for their PUMA 6 and PUMA 7 chips that were using in millions of routers.

in summary : https://approvedmodemlist.com/intel-pum ... t-defects/

Those were not firmware related issues but it was the chip in itself, bad conception.

Z200, Z300 and Z400 series motherboard were mostly using intel chips... don't you find weird that with newer AMD/Intel mobo generations all the new ones that comes out are using Realtek network chips (like 80% of the past 2 gens and even newer ones) even the high ends ones. Such a weird U-turn that mobo manufacturers have made, yet 0 public announcement but there are reasons for sure...
Here are an example : most of the new B550 mobos that came out use a Realtek 8111H chip (yes the same one i tested) which is a great chip, one of the best i tested. But you know what? this chip was released in 2011 :lol: almost 12 years old and it still beats the newer poorly made intel ones....

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

[Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 17 Nov 2022, 00:14

Thank you for that interesting data.

I already knew that "some" Realtek chips had really strange lag effects, but this is the most comprehensive end-user report I've seen thus far on specific chips!

At the end of the day ... Moral of the story, sometimes it's worth using PCIe bypassing motherboard chips if it's one of the "bad" implementations (bad Ethernet or bad USB, etc).

But a 3ms differences between your Ethernet cards? That's gigantic difference, Ethernet-wise.

3ms lag savings is quite large by bypassing "bad" motherboard Ethernet and using USB-C Ethernet or PCIe Ethernet, indeed! Though I'd expect a 1ms, that 3ms is quite unexpected, if genuine!

Some motherboards do, however, have good Ethernet... so YMMV depending on what motherboard you are playing on!

But much easier to install USB-C Ethernet or PCIe Ethernet than a motherboard replacement, though.

Did not expect USB-C to have lower latency than onboard, but not surprising given ultra-low latency of a good USB-C stack and using separate dedicated root hubs for lag-critical devices (such as high-pollrate mice etc) and avoiding plugging multiple things into the same USB root hub (aka one motherboard chip controlling all USB ports as a single hub, sometimes). That's why I recommend adding good PCIe USB cards, for those cases if you've overloaded your USB root hubs for on-board USB ports with simultaneous high-poll mice, high-poll keyboard, and gigabit USB Ethernet...

I do wonder how common this issue is. Cheaping out on a gaming motherboard is a common thing many people do, prioritizing the CPU and the GPU...
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

Ragerlis
Posts: 32
Joined: 06 Sep 2020, 09:40

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Ragerlis » 17 Nov 2022, 08:49

Do you mind to post some results for database reasons? Screenshots of each latency variation(can be the worst vs best case scenario) and pings inside router firmware vs windows pings(cmd).

And the names of the whole adapters instead the chip itself, so everyone can try to reproduce and test, making the whole thing even stronger.

Overall, nice catch, happy for you as you can finally have fun playing again.

skkiNN
Posts: 87
Joined: 07 Feb 2021, 14:20

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by skkiNN » 17 Nov 2022, 11:43

6yToFindTheAnswer wrote:
16 Nov 2022, 22:48
Thank you guys for your interest on this topic, i'm reading everything :) Very interesting to see that so many people have the same problem as me; with exactly the same network chip (intel i219-v)... There are already at least 10 people only on this post claiming having the same issues.
Bobo wrote:
15 Nov 2022, 15:38
I219-V is one of the worst network cards out there, simply changing the driver can greatly affect the mouse movement (for the worse).
Yes it is. Ever since i bought this mobo in 2017 nothing changed (same issue ever since with all the different drivers and windows versions, etc).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 21:42
There are indeed crappy on-board Ethernet implementations, and I've sometimes found a PCIe Ethernet card to produce better results.

Other times, the Ethernet port on a motherboard is really good.

It's very motherboard dependant.
Yes, yes, yes, totally agree with you here. Found a friend with a msi Z390 having the i219-v chip, so i asked him (without any previous explanation) to unplug his ethernet cable and see if there is a difference in mouse feeling... guess what? Yep he was losing his mind, as i personally felt on my rig, he felt the same on his; huge difference in mouse movements :shock:

I bought a bunch of PCie to ethernet card and one USB-C to ethernet here are my findings :

1st card :arrow: : chip : Realtek 8168 : Very bad result overall. Mostly having huge ping spikes CONSTANTLY without much load making online gaming impossible. Didn't go further with this one.

2nd card :arrow: : chip : Realtek 8111H : Now this one is a very very good surprise, it was super stable and seems like it handles small packets very well making it a superb chip for competitive online gaming. I got 2ms less ping overall on every servers on it was a VERY stable card.

3rd card :arrow: : chip : Broadcom 5751 : Because my router have a Broadcom chip, i was curious to buy a PCIe to Ethernet with a chip from Broadcom. This chipset was very weird : it is insanely stable in downloads (minimal jitter) and as soon as you upload something it starts to jitter (8ms +) this was not present on every other chip tested so it is an isolated issue specifically to this chip. When you shoot in csgo or valorant there is a very noticeable delay between the click and the hits on the bodies (like if you play with 150ms ping)... So it is not a good chip because as soon as you start shooting (upload) it starts to slightly jitter. Also it handles big packets very well but small packets makes it jitter (wtf???)

4th :arrow: is a USB-C to Ethernet : chip : REALTEK 8153 . I don't know what dark magic went into this one but as soon as i started testing my ping was 3ms lower on every server and it never, lowest amounts of jitter in download / uploads between all the cards. Never seen such a stable chip. My download speed was 2mbp/s slower than on the other cards but i will take it everyday for the stability it provides.


In conclusion : Yes a PCIe to ethernet card solve my issue. As soon as i plug my ethernet cable to the integrated chip in my motherboard (Intel i219-v) my mouse movements are slower (like if the DPI decrease) and i can even feel it on desktop. With all that has been said before (heavy feeling in game, bad hitboxes, getting pre-shots, etc ) So having a PCIe card solve all those issue. Also you have to buy a bunch like me and test them because there are some differences between them, some are far better than others. They are not equivalent.

Also :idea: don't believe what you read on Reddit; people are writing eevrywhere that intel chips are far better and years ahead of realtek ones (not true at all) Seems like people like to repeat what they heard without having anything to back their claims... People seems to forget that Intel doesn't have such a clear and bright past in network chips history as people tend to make you believe...

yes indeed, if you don't know, there was a huge lawsuit against Intel a few years ago for their PUMA 6 and PUMA 7 chips that were using in millions of routers.

in summary : https://approvedmodemlist.com/intel-pum ... t-defects/

Those were not firmware related issues but it was the chip in itself, bad conception.

Z200, Z300 and Z400 series motherboard were mostly using intel chips... don't you find weird that with newer AMD/Intel mobo generations all the new ones that comes out are using Realtek network chips (like 80% of the past 2 gens and even newer ones) even the high ends ones. Such a weird U-turn that mobo manufacturers have made, yet 0 public announcement but there are reasons for sure...
Here are an example : most of the new B550 mobos that came out use a Realtek 8111H chip (yes the same one i tested) which is a great chip, one of the best i tested. But you know what? this chip was released in 2011 :lol: almost 12 years old and it still beats the newer poorly made intel ones....
Sooo much interesting sir, i think u did an awesome job there..
So this product should be good right? if i red all correctly.
https://www.amazon.it/Computer-District ... C65&sr=8-3

Bobo
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Jun 2018, 11:44

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Bobo » 17 Nov 2022, 14:25

@6yToFindTheAnswer can you pls share what cards exactly have you bought ?

6yToFindTheAnswer
Posts: 5
Joined: 30 Oct 2022, 20:16

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by 6yToFindTheAnswer » 17 Nov 2022, 14:25

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 00:14
Thank you for that interesting data.

I already knew that "some" Realtek chips had really strange lag effects, but this is the most comprehensive end-user report I've seen thus far on specific chips!

At the end of the day ... Moral of the story, sometimes it's worth using PCIe bypassing motherboard chips if it's one of the "bad" implementations (bad Ethernet or bad USB, etc).

But a 3ms differences between your Ethernet cards? That's gigantic difference, Ethernet-wise.

3ms lag savings is quite large by bypassing "bad" motherboard Ethernet and using USB-C Ethernet or PCIe Ethernet, indeed! Though I'd expect a 1ms, that 3ms is quite unexpected, if genuine!

Some motherboards do, however, have good Ethernet... so YMMV depending on what motherboard you are playing on!

But much easier to install USB-C Ethernet or PCIe Ethernet than a motherboard replacement, though.

Did not expect USB-C to have lower latency than onboard, but not surprising given ultra-low latency of a good USB-C stack and using separate dedicated root hubs for lag-critical devices (such as high-pollrate mice etc) and avoiding plugging multiple things into the same USB root hub (aka one motherboard chip controlling all USB ports as a single hub, sometimes). That's why I recommend adding good PCIe USB cards, for those cases if you've overloaded your USB root hubs for on-board USB ports with simultaneous high-poll mice, high-poll keyboard, and gigabit USB Ethernet...

I do wonder how common this issue is. Cheaping out on a gaming motherboard is a common thing many people do, prioritizing the CPU and the GPU...
I know, i agree with you. i am not claiming that every motherboard integrated network chip is bad, there are for sure good implementations! But it seems that most likely a lot of motherboards with this intel i219-v chip are concerned by this very issue. After re-reading this entire topic we are more than 10 people who are having the same exact issue. Also don't forget the video of the Russlan guy who was talking about that same issue 4 years ago!!! (you can find the video a few pages back)

To be totally honest, i was not expecting to see such a difference between PCIe to ethernet card, it is quite insane how you can get so many different results.

I took my integrated intel i219-v chipset as a baseline, the Broadcom 5751 was very similar in pinging latency, the realtek 8168 was way worse, the relatek 8111 was having consistent 1-2ms lower ping and the realtek 8153 consitent 2-3ms lower ping. I think ping is lower because the jitter is lower you know? so the median became lower...

The realtek 8153 was by far the best of them all, lowest amount of jitter, handles small packets like a champ (important for gaming). Downside tho is that download speed and upload speed was slightly lower than others card but who cares? Stability is far more important for gaming. Realtek 8111 was the best PCie chip by far, while the Realtek 8168 was so so bad, it is quite insane how much difference there are in their cards how can one be so good and the other so bad? It's kinda funny :lol:

For the time being i have some new professional engagements abroad; so can't spend as much time as the old days :cry:

Anyways, i will buy a completely new last gen rig in a few months. I hope i can update the topic after having a few dozens gaming hours on it and being back home. It was an interesting few weeks that is for sure, hopefully this topic will help people on the internet one day.

skkiNN wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 11:43

Sooo much interesting sir, i think u did an awesome job there..
So this product should be good right? if i red all correctly.
https://www.amazon.it/Computer-District ... C65&sr=8-3
Thank you. I see that it is indeed using the 8153 chip but i think you can find it cheaper :) i bought mine from a local store, it has no brand so i can't find it. but i did a quick research on your link and there you go, i found one with the correct chipset only for 13Euros ;) https://www.amazon.it/RAMPOW-Adattatore ... r=8-5&th=1

Bobo
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Jun 2018, 11:44

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Bobo » 17 Nov 2022, 15:29

the Realtek 8111H pcie one if you can say the model.

mago
Posts: 73
Joined: 05 Sep 2022, 11:28

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by mago » 17 Nov 2022, 15:46

gonna test it for few days but
ASIX AX88772 USB2.0 to Fast Ethernet Adapter
does seems to work better then
Realtek Gaming 2.5GbE Family Controller

only 100mbit tho

pinging/flooding with hrPING the gateway
doesn't seems to make a difference

mb this policy / bug is only with udp ?

made a video switching in game to adapter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlUR9Qx4A08

edit:
disable the network card from bios doesn't seems to help
it works fine for few mins and then start lagging again
i limited the power board for gpu to reduce emi [?]
Last edited by mago on 18 Nov 2022, 04:42, edited 3 times in total.
Ⓢк𝕀lŁ เ𝓢 ᵗⒺм𝕡σr𝐀𝐑Ⓨ, lά𝔾 I𝐬 F𝔬ʳ𝔢𝓿ᗴ𝔯

Vocaleyes
Posts: 287
Joined: 09 Nov 2021, 18:10

Re: [Ethernet Onboard-vs-USB-vs-PCIe] I finally found the reason behind my input lag after 6 years

Post by Vocaleyes » 17 Nov 2022, 16:29

I219-v here. Z390 rog strix. Add me to the growing list.

Post Reply