CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Jul 2020, 19:29

Yagami wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 13:32
I usually use these games as a parameter because I have been playing them for over 10 years and I know exactly how they were fluid in the past. I am sure that the problem is not the servers, since I have tried almost all from Europe, North America, etc.
To help more determine if this is a connection-based issue:

(A) Do you only get this type of issue during online gaming?

(B) In the last 10 years, have you tried:
- Multiple ISPs?
- Business ISP instead of residential?
- Gaming VPN to partially bypass your ISP's backbone?
- Separate Internet connection for your competitive rig (WiFi disabled, no streaming, etc), versus rest of the house (for everything else in your home)

I know some esports gamers actually bought two FTTH connections -- one for their PC, and one for the rest of the house -- to prevent interference from other Internet traffic being generated in the same household.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Jul 2020, 19:34

dervu wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 01:53
If so, where is the point that hardware actually matters beyond network performance? Difference between 60/144hz, 60/300fps?
The venn diagram is so huge, that there's no hard-and-fast advice. I've seen computer hardware be the limiting factor both on dialup and FTTH connections, and I've seen network connections be the limiting factor both on dialup an FTTH connections. It's that huge a gamut.

Now, if we were to narrow the scope to a 128-tick CS:GO server (that's quite demanding, open-Internet network-wise), then it is almost always the network connection being your weakest link once you're already a 240Hz rig. Even 4ms loaded latency jitter can bump you to previous/next CS:GO ticks quite easily -- this can happen on cable Internet connections when somebody starts streaming.

So, if possible, u9sually favour FTTH over cable. The latency-change effect between loaded and unloaded connection is much smaller. Say, your connection was 20ms to the CS:GO server. Then somebody else -- maybe your roommate -- on a WiFi iPad suddenly starts streaming Netflix (The new iPads with 11ac WiFi with gigabyte/sec speed flash memory, will often surge very hard at hundreds of megabits per second to quickly buffer-up -- heavy loaded latency). Or somebody clicked to a heavy bandwidth site, surfing around on their PC/laptop 5MB webpage downloads. For those moments is a "loaded latency" -- now you are about 25ms or 30ms latency from the CS:GO server, and now your aim-training effect slips to the next CS:GO tick and whatever latency you trained on no longer applies for that moment in the first few seconds somebody. Latency fluctuations of unloaded-vs-loaded latency will jitter you all over the place throughout multiple CS:GO ticks of the 128tick servers. That is going to make you randomly make your aim / miss your aim. See the "Latency Aim Training" effect of The Amazing Human Visible Milliseconds, as an example -- Enemy running past opening at 2000 pixels/sec, 1tick (at 128tick server) is 8ms so your aim is either 16 pixels ahead or behind the enemy relative to your previously-trained aimtraining target (hitbox reg). Battle(non)sense covers a huge amount of this amazing stuff, so I'm understandably simplifying a lot.

Nontheless...

So (clap) You (clap) Must (clap) Find (clap) A (clap) Way (clap) To (clap) De-Jitter (clap) Your (clap) Connection!
....Wink! ;)

If you have a pro gaming career (esports), and you're stuck covid-gaming over garden-variety ISPs.... THEN you might wish to evaluate drastic moves:

-- Ethernet hardwire to PC, always. WiFi will give you a lot of latency jitter during loaded-vs-unloaded
-- Pay extra for business
-- Get FTTH if possible
-- If no FTTH, test all ISPs you can purchase (get Cable + DSL simultaneously)
-- Pay for two separate connections (one dedicated to gaming PC)
-- Put your ISP's router in bridge mode and use a high end gaming router, and heavily prioritize your gaming traffic
-- Pay for a gaming VPN
-- Nomad around for a while, testing other people's connections. (right now, not a good option during COVID)
-- Remember, paying 3x extra for 1/10th bandwidth is not necessarily bad thing, IF your latency jitter falls by 90%. Given choice between 100Mbps fiber and 1gigabit cable, go for 100Mbps fiber for an esports career

Nontheless, connection issues is almost always worse than most in-system latencies. At least, the in-system latencies are aim-trainable, but fluctuating latency effects are not skill-compensatable. The crazy +20ms latency jitter of many garden-variety consumer Cable Internet connections, will make you keep missing your frags, you thought you hit someone, but server didn't take the point.

In some cases, latency predictablness/consistency is sometimes more important than absolute latency.

I'd rather have a slower connection with zero latency jitter (<1ms) than a gigabit with high latency jitter (>20ms). Unfortunately, my gigabit Cable has a large latency-change effect during utilization changes (0% through 50% through 100%), and I'm looking forward to switching to gigabit FTTH when it arrives in two months.

This will be far a bigger issue than electricity issues & AMD-vs-Intel issues, for the majority of gamers.
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senny22
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by senny22 » 05 Jul 2020, 08:10

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 19:34

If you have a pro gaming career (esports), you might wish to evaluate drastic moves:
-- Put your ISP's router in bridge mode and use a high end gaming router, and heavily prioritize your gaming traffic
-- Pay for a gaming VPN

I'd rather have a slower connection with zero latency jitter (<1ms) than a gigabit with high latency jitter (>20ms). Unfortunately, my gigabit Cable has a large latency-change effect during utilization changes (0% through 50% through 100%), and I'm looking forward to switching to gigabit FTTH when it arrives in two months.
I recently bought a Edgerouter X in order to use it's SQM QoS function that's helping with bufferbloat (which is the same as latency jitter?). And using the speedtest at DSLreports, I've gone from a grade B to A/A+ in regards to bufferbloat. However, there is still the occasional spike in latency jitter but I'm unsure if this is limited to during "loaded" scenarios which isn't really the case when gaming. Is there any way to test latency jitter / bufferbloat during lightly loaded "gaming-like" scenarios?

Also, about the gaming VPN suggestion, how would a VPN help with latency jitter? what is it that you bypass by using a VPN? Do you have any specific VPN recommendation?

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 Jul 2020, 17:37

senny22 wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 08:10
Also, about the gaming VPN suggestion, how would a VPN help with latency jitter? what is it that you bypass by using a VPN? Do you have any specific VPN recommendation?
Gaming VPN is simply a band-aid around crappy backbones. You might not need a gaming VPN if your ISP peers with really good backbones or existing gaming backbones.

Yes, VPN adds overhead, but if it gets you on a low-jitter backbone "most of the way" between you and servers, then WIN-WIN.

I have no recommendations because it's often very route-specific. You will have to test all of the gaming VPNs for your specific Internet routes to your gaming servers. You may find that at least one gaming VPN is lower-jitter than your existing ISP default routing between you and the server.

- Sometimes lower packet latency than ISP backbone
- Sometimes higher packet latency than ISP backbone
- Sometimes lower packet jitter than ISP backbone
- Sometimes higher packet jitter than ISP backbone

Ideally you want low latency AND low jitter. But there are also situations of "more packet latency, but lower packet jitter". And there are also "less packet latency, but more packet jitter".

If I had to pick poison, I'd take higher packet latency in exchange for lower packet lag-jitter. At least skills can successfully latency-train for a fixed-latency, because you can compensate for hitbox lagbehind effects. But latency jitter creates jittering hitbox registration (unpredictable hitreg). Sometimes latency consistency is more important than latency lowness.

For benchmarking loaded latency versus unloaded latency, you have to be careful of ping tools -- ICMP, TCP, UDP. Preferably you want a game that has good analysis tools built in, but barring that, you can use other tools that simulate gaming traffic (of the same packet type to similar servers), and measure how that reacts to varying Internet loads. You want to QoS-prioritize your gaming bandwidth and make sure loaded/unloaded latency is as identical as possible.

If you just want end-user education of loaded latency, get a WiFi laptop (pre-11ac) and run www.fast.com .... It won't be an accurate emulation of gaming, but it educates th34e click the "Shore more info". You'd be shocked at the latency differences between a loaded/unloaded connection! That's an example (Pre-11ac WiFi is half duplex, so loaded latency creates major problems). Here's an example of my Gigabit Cable connection over even 11ac WiFi -- supposedly full duplex.

cogeco-gigabit.png
cogeco-gigabit.png (9.68 KiB) Viewed 7685 times

(Note: You should be using better latency-measurement tools more appropriate for game benchmarking, this is just an educational example)

Ouch. 13ms versus 105ms? That's ALMOST as bad as a slowdown telnet/ssh when FTPing over a 14.4Kbps dialup modem connection of the 1990s. (Not quite as bad, but you get the idea if you grew up in the dialup era). Now, if in CS:GO, if the game packets jittered that much -- the hitbox reg will be WAY off when somebody else in the same household loads a big webpage, video, or starts the buffer-surge of the beginning of a Netflix stream.

Eventually I'll have FTTH.

For FTTH + direct-wire Ethernet, latency jitter can be as little as 1ms or less. That's more valuable than Gold or Platinium. Nevermind, more valuable than Feringi Latinum. Fight hard for FTTH where possible, and direct-wire if possible. Of course, your routing might be crappy (that's where a gaming VPN can come in to help).

Now, loaded-vs-unloaded connection problems is easier to avoid worrying about if you don't share the Internet with the rest of the household (thus, why the 2-connection recommendation for paid career esports atheletes having to play at home due to COVID). One ISP FTTH Ethernetted straight to your gaming PC, and one everything-else ISP connection (for surfing / Netflix / tablets / laptops / roommates / family / etc).

If you're just playing recreationally, and can't afford the expense, most of this doesn't really apply. Just common-sense stuff when budget is available.

It's amazing how many people are not willing to pay extra for an ISP, yet they buy a powerful $3000 gaming PC that plays crap on a crappy Internet connection. Sometimes it is anathema to pay $350/month for a business 100 Mbps fiber connection when Comcast is giving you gigabit cable for cheaper.....and your neighbours got lucky with Verizon FiOS...... but sometimes one gotta bite the bullet, pony up, and thank your esports career. Of course, it doesn't always help things, there's a roll-the-dice element here too, but some magical improvements to gaming scores have happened when playing a proper game of ISP chess.
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K3rneL
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by K3rneL » 15 Jul 2020, 09:04

This is a Network congestion problem. Sure that are times when u can play very well, only few moments, normally is bad

You will have bad movement issues, bad hit reg, incorrect positioning of enemies.

It is congestion in the path to the server

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Yagami
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Yagami » 27 Jul 2020, 23:05

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 19:29
Yagami wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 13:32
I usually use these games as a parameter because I have been playing them for over 10 years and I know exactly how they were fluid in the past. I am sure that the problem is not the servers, since I have tried almost all from Europe, North America, etc.
To help more determine if this is a connection-based issue:

(A) Do you only get this type of issue during online gaming?

(B) In the last 10 years, have you tried:
- Multiple ISPs?
- Business ISP instead of residential?
- Gaming VPN to partially bypass your ISP's backbone?
- Separate Internet connection for your competitive rig (WiFi disabled, no streaming, etc), versus rest of the house (for everything else in your home)

I know some esports gamers actually bought two FTTH connections -- one for their PC, and one for the rest of the house -- to prevent interference from other Internet traffic being generated in the same household.
(A)

Yes, the problem seems to be only when I play online. My internet seems to be quite stable. In fact, my ping has been reduced a lot in the last few months (I'm getting 40ms instead of 50-60ms on the same servers), and I have absolutely 0% packet loss on servers that I play.

(B)

- Yes, I've had a different ISP in the past. However, I changed because it was not fiber optic. In addition, my ping was very high in Europe and I suffered from constant speed drops at peak times - which never happened to my current ISP.

- I never tried business plan or gaming plan offered by my current ISP.

- If WTFast is considered a VPN for games, then yes. But honestly, it didn't make any big differences that made it worth buying a monthly subscription. Besides, my movement problem never improved, it seems that I am playing in slow motion, even though I get 300-500 fps.

- I never had a separate internet connection, however I have already changed all the settings of the router, I disabled everything you can imagine for nothing.

To better understand the situation, I found this post that perfectly describes my problem (he is talking about Battlefield 4 as well).

Link: https://answers.ea.com/t5/Battlefield-4 ... -p/2377629

The feeling I have is that it seems to be something related to desynchronization with the servers. However, I don't understand why this is happening. I've done everything you can imagine. I even bought a dedicated SSD for games only.

Hitreg issues, enemies with insane reaction time with 10-13% accuracy; getting killed behind the corners, enemies throwing grenade and killing me with a gun at the same time (this is visible on the killcam)... getting insta-killed, getting stuck on absolutely nothing, delay on keyboard when I sprint, etc.

Believe me, when I join the game the feeling is that everything is wrong. It is really disappointing to play like that.

Today I bought Doom Eternal and the feeling is similar, the game does not seem very responsive as it feels broken.

Unreazz
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Unreazz » 06 Aug 2020, 10:46

(A) Do you only get this type of issue during online gaming?

(B) In the last 10 years, have you tried:
- Multiple ISPs?
- Business ISP instead of residential?
- Gaming VPN to partially bypass your ISP's backbone?
- Separate Internet connection for your competitive rig (WiFi disabled, no streaming, etc), versus rest of the house (for everything else in your home)

I know some esports gamers actually bought two FTTH connections -- one for their PC, and one for the rest of the house -- to prevent interference from other Internet traffic being generated in the same household.

(A) Yes only during online games, in all online games i have those issues not only in shooter games so it has someting to do with internet cause when i took my PC to a friends place, it was much more better there. My friends place is like 2 citys away from my current position and i changed for myself the location either 2 streets away and getting those issues there too so it might be, that the whole area where am i living seems to be infected.

(B)
- Multiple ISPs? Yes of course, i have even DSL and Cable on the same time and booth connections had this issues. i changed multple times DSL Providers but all keeps the same with the gaming expierence online.

-- Business ISP instead of residential? Yes i upgraded my cable contract to Business plan but that doesnt changed anything, the only diffrences there was, that they sended me a router with a static IP adresse but during Gaming, all keeps the same after i payed for a VPN Service and that was the only thing which helped a lot.... my shoots seems to be connection again and every enemys hadnt those unuseal movements anymore soo they became "trackable" for me. Also my mouse and every ingame seems to "smoother" but that helped only for "2 hourers" cause after that i had only packet losses and had to manually chancel my connection to the VPN to reconnecting it again.

- Gaming VPN to partially bypass your ISP's backbone? Firstly a VPN helped a lot and the gaming expierence seem fixed at first ! but as i mentioned before, it helped only maybe 2-3 or months ? now even with a VPN i have still this issues or even getting worser... i think its depend much on which server you take and where you have the route to them. i also tried Gaming VPNs but doesnt help either. firstly i thought it was cause of my "static IP" which i got from my upgrade so i called my ISP and told them to gave me a dynamic IP for the hope it gets fixed again but it doesnt done anything.

- last Point doesnt make any diffrence.

my only last Hope is gaming cloud Service where you getting your own virual Computer with his own Internet Connection during the cloud... otherwise you have to look that you find a new home or place and then hoping that the "ISSUE" what ever it is .... doesnt being there.

There is even a Vodei about it where someone has this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1NyqvC ... ex=9&t=91s

compared to someone who has really GOOD internet Connection : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xNk2Ma7wjU&t=4s

And here is another "Thread" about people who has the same Issue : https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads ... p.3393676/

What ever it causing it .... no one seemed to find a fix for it since i think it has to do with infrastructures on the ground where you living

SKILLEN
Posts: 93
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 23:08

Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by SKILLEN » 01 Sep 2020, 23:28

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Last edited by SKILLEN on 14 May 2021, 07:39, edited 1 time in total.

Unixko
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Unixko » 02 Sep 2020, 08:10

SKILLEN wrote:
01 Sep 2020, 23:28
Mello explain exactly 100% the problem which i have.i bought 3 different computers, tried 3 monitors (crt,144hz,240hz) tried every tweak you can find on internet and still no fix..only left to try new internet provider. When the game run normally ,which is very rare im better than almost every non pro player(this is my faceit account https://www.faceit.com/en/players/sas0ry/stats/csgo ) but later im becoming average player at best ;) . When\if i try new isp i will post here.
600 matches 1.75 kd No friends lvl 5 steam do you think somebode belive you that you are legit ?

SKILLEN
Posts: 93
Joined: 01 Sep 2020, 23:08

Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by SKILLEN » 02 Sep 2020, 09:58

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Last edited by SKILLEN on 14 May 2021, 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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