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CSGO feels like 60hz

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 15 Sep 2017, 17:04

RealNC wrote:However, the problem is 100% solvable by using a modem that supports SNR margin adjustment. Tweaking it to a value that makes the modem connect at a lower speed than it normally would eliminates all issues.

Lucky! That's a luxury I didn't have.

Forcing a DSL modem to connect at a slower speed (without calling the ISP) for a stronger & lower-latency connection for competitive gaming.

lexlazootin wrote:I see the same thing when i deal with product returns, if the person is claiming more then 1 thing wrong with the product 9 times out of 10 they are just making it up just to get a return, and the sad part is that i believe the people honestly believe what they are saying.

Well... That's another reason why our forum exists, to find other people with the same problem (or placebo) -- troubleshoot more precisely & convince them -- that and share knowledge! :D

Sure, the wild goose chase wastes a little time occasionally, but's still (usually) more efficient to have our forum members debating here, than to torture the tech support phone lines. ;) ;) ;)
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby mello » 16 Sep 2017, 06:03

lexlazootin wrote:You can't prove there is nothing wrong and you don't want to, it's a waste of our time and yours.


This is wrong. The problem is that people have trouble describing exactly what the issue is, because often it is hard to do. We all experience things differently and to a different degree. Same thing with fps, stutter, motion blur, tearing and even input lag, not everyone sees it, feels it and sees the difference when hardware/software change is presented to them. In this particular case i am 100% sure that the problem is internet connection and the issue crankz is describing is a problem with hit registration.

crankz wrote:Its not internet related im 100% sure.


It is internet releated and sadly you can't do anything about it. The sooner you realize it the better.

crankz wrote:ive had others isps before and lived on other houses..


And still, the issue you are describing fits perfectly into internet connection problems, because this is the only thing that can alter your performance in a game via internet to a bigger degree. FPS drops and inconsistency, stutter, tearing, motion blur, 60fps@60Hz, low end system and non gaming mouse... all of it won't really matter (trust me) if your hit registration is on point, you will be able to perform fairly consistently, because in reality hit registration is all that matters when it comes to fps gaming via internet. YES, all these other thing i mentioned can bother you, frustrate you a little, make you miss some shots sometimes, but it will never create a big enough differenece in performence the way that bad internet connection can do with poor hit reg.



And... were they able to fix the problem they had ? No. Because it is exactly as i said, 95% of people that have been reporting problems with cs 1.6 and cs:go in last 10 years on online boards and forums were never able to fix the problem they were having... because the problem they felt and experienced (this problem is described in many different ways by players, it can be poor hit registration, laggy feel, non smooth aiming, poor responsiveness and many other things) is a direct result of your internet connection performence that changes constantly based on network usage (city wide and in your local area) and parameters such as interleaver depth and the number of errors that needs to be corrected at any given time. This is the only thing that can create big enough difference in gaming that people feel a need to fix because it is directly affecting their skillset in a game.

im pretty sure its the mobo, gaming mobos are a mistake :oops:


"CSGO feels like 60hz"
"Basically i have 200-300fps, 144 hz and good ping and my game still feels like crap."
"When ever i re-install windows or game (sometimes) it feels good for a few days then it goes back to the same"
"Please guys could u help me? this is skillcaping my game so much"
"I think its hardware related... cuz some days it feels good, others feels really crap... "
"My game just feels heavy as fuck like i dont have +200 fps or 144hz, mouse feels laggy, peaking corners feels sluggish... when i reinstall windows it feels good for a few days then it goes back to crap... Also sometimes when i reinstall csgo it feels good for a few days then boom... or if i keep my pc off for some days it gets good then again bad...
I have +2500 elo at faceit, playing on a high team and my stats are ultra inconsistent cuz i cant play at this level when ever i have lags."


ALL of that literally screams BAD INTERNET / BAD HITREG. This is the only thing that can make you feel like you are skill capped. And all your "fixes" feel also random because sometimes they seem to work, and sometimes it changes nothing, this is placebo because your internet connection performance (and UDP packets handling - errors, error correction) changes constantly. The problem itself also seem to go away and show up randomly... which is caused by network performance fluctuations.

Please log into your router and search for network parameters that are reported by your router, interleaver depth, delay (ms), IMP, and all kind of reported errors (both correctable and uncorrectable, this will be a number). Post them here. If your router doesn't show that via admin panel, try to connect to your router via TELNET and get that information.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 17 Sep 2017, 00:04

Alas, this topic is the kind of topic that can be discussed ad nauseum because there are so many ways to turn an Internet connection crap (it takes just 1 weak link!). Modem, ISP, intermediate hop, server's ISP connectivity with your ISP, etc, etc. One can easily require a networking degree just to solve some kinds of problems (If it's an Internet-related problem, which, alas, it often is).
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby mello » 17 Sep 2017, 05:24

RealNC wrote:I'm still on VDSL2, and have this issue since the ISP center is further away (I live on an island, and as you can guess, it's not the best location for high speed broadband.)

However, the problem is 100% solvable by using a modem that supports SNR margin adjustment. Tweaking it to a value that makes the modem connect at a lower speed than it normally would eliminates all issues.

It also works in reverse. I can modify the margin to connect with maximum speed, but then the problems get worse. Which is perfectly fine while you're not gaming ;-)


SNR margin manipulation is a great thing, especially when you have big variances in SNR margin during the day that is causing disconnections and huge packet loss (very low SNR margin). But sadly it will not fix bad hit registration. Errors on the line will remain there despite lower sync rate, and this is what triggers error correction and interleaving. However, if you originally had a higher level of interleaving depth on your line, error rates may get smaller, and you may actually end up with lower interleaving depth than you orignally had. I assume it all depends on how much of speed you can sacrifice, someone who has 6Mbps connection will not benefit from it, but someone who has a lot of room to spare by having 20Mbps or 50Mbps connection actually might.

There are different levels of interleaving, fastpath with no error correction is best for gaming, yes, but lowest interleaving depths are perfectly acceptable and will not cause bad hit registration, at least not to a significant degree.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Alas, this topic is the kind of topic that can be discussed ad nauseum because there are so many ways to turn an Internet connection crap (it takes just 1 weak link!). Modem, ISP, intermediate hop, server's ISP connectivity with your ISP, etc, etc.


While you are correct that there are many different things that may affect internet connection negatively, the hit registration problem in fps games is a real thing and it is separate from the usual suspects (some of the things you mentioned) when there are general problems with someones internet connection.

However, there is a situation that may affect your hit registration in gaming... that you may acutally be able to fix. But it requires having bad modem or bad/old/damaged cables in the first place. Remember, error correction and interleaving jumps in when there are many errors on the line, or burst of errors. That may actually happen because of your modem or cables that you are using. I am talking about both: 1) cables that are connected between modem and socket , 2) cable that is connected to your socket from the outside. Of course you can't really replace the whole cable between you and your ISP, but you might request a new cable between your home and the outside to the main cable connection on your street which should be around 10-50 meters if you live in a house. If the "short range" cables were the culprit you will be able to have higher sync rates and good hit registration... if the "long range" cables are the problem (or part of the problem) then sadly nothing will change.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:One can easily require a networking degree just to solve some kinds of problems (If it's an Internet-related problem, which, alas, it often is).


Bad registration problem in fps games was never really addressed by any networking experts, afaik. It just sits there for years unnotinced and ignored and no one really gives a shit, thats the current reality. And i am pretty sure that if you ask an expert about that he would not be able to tell you what the problem is and where to start...at least not straight away and not unless the issue is investigated and studied first.

If customers would be able to switch between fastpath ("gaming mode") and interleaved then this problem would be pretty much non existent, with the exception of some serious problems with damaged cables/incorrect configuration on the ISPs side. Although i am not sure if it can be done only from the ISPs side, or it can actually be done via modem settings, but there are already a few people who tried creating a workaround, for example like this one here. Basically, having a possibility to access advanced setting and configurations via modem and set fastpath by themselves. To be honest, i also asked asus directly few years ago about something similar, hoping that i will be able to disable error correction (or stop reporting errors to ISP) and enable fastpath or at least be able to change interleaving depth. In the end they obviously didn't added the setting i requested. I am sure that if someone dig deep enough... a some kind of hack would be possible.

--

And now, when i think about it... maybe there is an actual chance (although a slim one) of having a true gaming router ? If you really would be able to stop error reporting (by your router) and triggering interleaving or having a possibility to set fastpath or change interleaving depth by yourself, then such a product would be a best seller in the fps gaming market. Now, think about it, when it all comes down to it, in fps games hit registration is all that matters, and if you would be able to achieve the "best possible scenario" by having your router configured appropriately (or just set it to "gaming mode"), then someone would definetly could make a lot of money out of such a product.

Chief, you are in a unique position right now, maybe you can drop this idea to some Asus reps that you know ? I think the idea is sound, as long as you can achieve the thing i described (fastpath or ability to lower interleaving depth) then you will be able to enjoy a tangible difference in your online fps games.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby shooterino » 07 Oct 2017, 08:20

hi, did u fix this ? or make any improvement?
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby chriswww » 08 Oct 2017, 19:42

Only recently I finally realised that in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory I needed to turn off opengl extensions to realize much better hit registration. It's counter-intuitive, but there you go, hit registration doesn't have to be all about network. I still have the ongoing for years weird stutter problem, but I don't have mysterious deaths and times when I clicked shoot and nothing happened. I'd also sometimes have missing hit sounds. Does CSGO have an r_allowextensions setting like ET does? Change it to zero (then /vid_restart) and if it works you'll straight away notice better hitreg. The best way to see if effect is not placebo is to test original setup playing against all bots on one server for many rounds, then change setup and play several rounds on same server with bots only and you should see consistently better stats. Playing against human players should also deliver an improvement but to a lesser degree, as good players will adjust to your improvement in hitreg and responsiveness. From what i can tell, it was more than just hitreg on its own that changed, as the poor hitreg was one of several things affected by some underlying timing issue.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby mello » 09 Oct 2017, 03:48

chriswww wrote:Only recently I finally realised that in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory I needed to turn off opengl extensions to realize much better hit registration. It's counter-intuitive, but there you go, hit registration doesn't have to be all about network.


In 95% of the cases, it is about the network. Also, it is hard to believe that you have fixed bad hit registration with a graphic setting, unless it was a bug in this game. But if it worked for you, then great ;)

chriswww wrote:I'd also sometimes have missing hit sounds.


If you get missing sounds, it is caused by a packet loss (and a quite a big one), at least in CS.

chriswww wrote:Does CSGO have an r_allowextensions setting like ET does? Change it to zero (then /vid_restart) and if it works you'll straight away notice better hitreg.


It doesn't, but even if it had it wouldn't change anything in CSGO. Its a graphic setting, and someone would have already found a fix for bad hit reg by now, but no one ever did.

chriswww wrote:The best way to see if effect is not placebo is to test original setup playing against all bots on one server for many rounds, then change setup and play several rounds on same server with bots only and you should see consistently better stats.


I am not sure if playing against bots is a good idea to test hit registration. And stats doesn't tell the whole story. You can still have good stats with bad hit reg, you just need to alter your gameplay style, that means you need to be more careful, sometimes more defensive, and sneaky to get kills with bad hit reg. And the changes in hit registration, you can just feel them, depening on the severity, you can clearly see a boost in reflex (you shoot faster than others), peeking cornerns / angles feels more natural, and you actually can get a clear kills with 1-2 bullets and flickshoots instead of spraying more than necessary and praying that you will get a kill.

chriswww wrote:Playing against human players should also deliver an improvement but to a lesser degree, as good players will adjust to your improvement in hitreg and responsiveness.


This is completely not true. If you have better hitreg and responsiveness, you are basically playing closer to your true skillset and are not longer skill capped. No one can adjust to that, it just means that you will get a kill when you should have... and you will not die when you shouldn't have. If worse players than you were killing you and now you have good hit reg, then you will be able to kill them all the time, and nothing they do will change that. And better players will still be able to kill you (as they should) but you will be more competitive and you will be able to kill them more times with a good hit reg, for example: a) bad hit reg, you are 1:9 against a better player, b) good hit reg, you are 3:7 or 4:6 against better player. This is essentially how it works.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby shooterino » 10 Oct 2017, 02:32

But guys OP is right, this is not only network problem. It still make a huge difference playing on "bad" and stable network. But for me its also affected on LAN, and its not only CS:GO, its also noticeable on LoL. I mean those heavy movements and slow response from clicks. For example on my laptop with poor 50 fps I could play better on same network then on my PC. Recoil is easier to controll, shooting is faster and responsive, the overall gameplay is smooth while on my PC its crap. So me and OP having another problem not 100% affected by network. Just FYI, im playing on 1Gbps fiber with stable ping, 5ms on MM servers without drastic spikes.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby chriswww » 10 Oct 2017, 03:32

If CSGO is anything like ET, then you can start your own local server and with a bit of extra effort setup bots etc. This is helpful to rule out network issues, which (network blame) i've seen sometimes banded around in the same way that "update your drivers" is. Once you've played on own server or even on a lan server (even other games of same engine) then it's discernible when the game feels like the client is having issues vs network lag, although the latter can compound the problem occasionally.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz

Postby shooterino » 10 Oct 2017, 05:22

Why u are trying to focus on network when its sure its not network problem. U could blame network for having bad hit registration but the topic is about problems which cause game behave slow, unresponsive to your input, etc..
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