CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Jan 2020, 16:39

Unreazz wrote:
30 Dec 2019, 06:59
i talked to a lots of people on "Twitch" which has almost "good internet" for gaming like all of them has an advantage against most of other players and when i talked to them privatly, they almost told me that they have a "local ISP" soo in that case Guys "good luck"
[...]
canx66 wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 16:20
I registered now just to say that mello speaks the 1000% truth.
[...]
canx66 wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 16:20
You will NOTICE this problems, if you have a internet issue.
I agree. Unfortunately very difficult voodoo troubleshooting that fails to come up with solutions. The way routers / ISPs / networks / backbones often jitter packets or clump packets together, to create weird cyclic latency effects, will always throw some games to an extent.
\
Chris aka Battle(non)sense tries to work hard on analyzing the game side of things, but the computer-to-server chain is a very hard to solve and troubleshoot section, that has provided lots of wild goose chases, red herrings, as well as genuine frustrations, true problems, scientific proofs. (All mixed into each other).

It's definitely a latency bone of contention, creating variable latency effects even on low ping connections. Even little things -- that average 10ms connection that sometimes spikes 50ms because somebody suddenly decided to post a video via WhatsApp in the same household -- or spiking to 30ms because the kids started a 4K Disney+ -- will definitely be felt in your game, at least the lag-transition effects, affecting your muscle memory, even as the game engine struggles to try to auto-compensate for the varying lag. With some of those Internet companies, cheap cable companies sometimes have poor QoS behaviours, even as you turn their WiFi off, use the Ethernet ports, try bridge modes, as you struggle to try to override things with your own favourite game routers, Tomato devices, or whatnot. #Hairpull #Headdesk

We have to have a bit of decorum when debating this, and there's a lot of snakeoil (and difficult failed troubleshoots) mixed in with the true science (data analysis shows definite problems) -- but I hear you there buddy.

The Internet connection is a genuine problem. At 60fps at 60Hz, it's not much of a problem (16.7ms granularities). At 240fps at 240Hz, the small granularities between frames (4.17ms) is much smaller than the ping jitter of even the best FTTH connections. To a certain point, games can filter the jitter but there's no perfection.

Solutions? Hard to say. It's more infrastructural. Even when you switch ISPs you're often still using the same backbones in the country too. FTTH helps to an extent though, especially given the push for Stadia. The Google Stadia (game streaming stuff) will force ISPs and backbone providers to smooth things out beacuse in THOSE, you actually SEE/FEEL the latency variances that much more. When Stadia runs perfect, it will often mean your existing 300ps CS:GO games will run so much better. Hopefully the still-ongoing net neutrality saga doesn't bleep things up too much.

Milliseconds matter in a lot of the chain. This is an area mostly beyond our user control, sadly if we want to go beyond a LAN game.
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       To support Blur Busters:
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by alexia30 » 24 Jan 2020, 05:35

Check whether you are running exclusive fullscreen and not just border-less fullscreen!
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by davidoo » 24 Jan 2020, 18:21

yes!

disable fullscreen optimization and game-mode in windows 10.
Made csgo way smoother for me.

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Unreazz » 27 Jan 2020, 06:03

This is just so frustrating man ... when you goo online against other players and feel clearly a disadvantage. Its like you are not connected to the server very well or your packets coming to late. You basically loosing against every 1 vs 1 even against noobs, they are not trackable anymore and the game feels so diffrent.

its like just amagine you make a race and your car has no wheels at all.

Enemy see you faster, on his screen he almost shoot you 4 times but on your screen you notice those to late and there is nothing what you can do about that.

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Simon95 » 27 Jan 2020, 07:44

Unreazz wrote:
27 Jan 2020, 06:03
This is just so frustrating man ... when you goo online against other players and feel clearly a disadvantage. Its like you are not connected to the server very well or your packets coming to late. You basically loosing against every 1 vs 1 even against noobs, they are not trackable anymore and the game feels so diffrent.

its like just amagine you make a race and your car has no wheels at all.

Enemy see you faster, on his screen he almost shoot you 4 times but on your screen you notice those to late and there is nothing what you can do about that.
That’s the reason why I quitted CS GO. In every other shooter I have a great experience. But in CS GO I have the feeling that the enemies see me half a second before I see them and no I don’t have a bad reaction time (170ms). Maybe CS GO doesn’t like a unstable ping. I have a 50ms Ping with a 5-10ms jitter.

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by nuggify » 29 Jan 2020, 22:20

crankz wrote:
22 Aug 2017, 11:03
Basically i have 200-300fps, 144 hz and good ping and my game still feels like crap.
When ever i re-install windows or game (sometimes) it feels good for a few days then it goes back to the same...
This problem sounds a lot like the issue me and others are experiencing that we have confirmed is caused by some sort of EM/RF interference on our data cables. Still do not know of a solution and have tried many things however the fact you say that it is good for a few days and comes back is similar to what I have seen. Can you test ferrites/toroids on your cables and see if it makes a difference? I know that some seem to think this is related to ISP but in my case I am 100% sure that is not the cause.

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by nick4567 » 30 Jan 2020, 01:27

canx66 wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 16:20
I registered now just to say that mello speaks the 1000% truth. Iam f***ng in to this for years and tested everything, I mean EVERYTHING. Pls dont say something about tweaking and drivers and bla bla. All this things, mello is saying are similiar to my problems.
i would also like to thank mello if it werent for him i would have never known it was an internet problem my pings were always fine and no pl or choke but my inconsistency was insane you cant go from dropping a 40 bomb playing like a monster and then the next game struggle to get 10
this is what he said mattered in a pm
- Technology: DSL, ADSL, VDSL, cable, fibre etc.
- Your ISP and its infrastrutrure (new cables/devices vs old cables/devices etc.)
- Bandwidth saturation on an internet provider's network, meaning that, do they have more clients than their network can handle or they have still a lot of room (bandwidth) for new customers to spare
- Internet activity in your area aka the number of people using the internet in relation to your ISP's infrastructure (and in relation to the number of controlling devices in the area/access points etc.)
- Configuration within your ISP's network regarding packet prioritization, software optimizations, interleave depth, any artificial delays added that improve network stability among clients etc.

When it comes to gaming what matters is internet performance in the peak hours, when most people are using the network. There is no way of knowing if your ISP's network can handle the traffic in your area or not, without testing it by yourself, and it means you would need to live at that place for at least a few weeks. But there a few things that might increase the chances of getting best internet performance:

- the closer you live to your ISP's backbone network and central, the better chance that you will avoid any bottlenecks, performance issues and interferences from within the network you are connected to
- get a 1Gb fibre broadband if you can
- if you can't get the above, then always insist on a business package if possible (and especially when your ISP offers packet priorization for business customers), although it might not be always possible to get it for regular customers. It all depeneds on the country and your own ISP's regulations and rules that they have
- if you are stuck on DSL/ADSL/VDSL then being as close as possible to one of your ISP's central networks should almost guarantee proper internet performance when it comes to gaming
- and again, when on DSL/ADSL/VDSL you should always talk to customer services and insist on getting the lowest possible interleave depth and artificial delays (ms) set on your customer line profile

In reality there is a lot of luck involved regarding network performance in relation to gaming. There are lots of people who are stuck with one or two crappy ISP's for life, and they are unable to do anything about that unless they move to a different place.

Hit registration problems and being prefired are almost always because of the issues with the internet performance. It all revolves around packets either beings late, lost or delivered out of order, which messes up visibile model positions between 2 players. Basically it affects:

- what you see
- what other player sees
- what server sees based on feedback from both, and then interpretes in favor of one player or the other

Also, the game itself is often forced to use prediction algorithms to compensate for network differences between players such as ping, ping spikes, packet losses etc. The reason why you feel and see that you are being prefired by some players is because they are able to see you before you see them on the screen

also there have been some people on this forum who have complained of similar issues while being on fast path so idk if interleaving depth/delay is the only reason

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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 31 Jan 2020, 02:09

nick4567 wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 01:27
- get a 1Gb fibre broadband if you can
In addition to a gigabit ISP, get a high end router. One that performs fast and minimizes buffer bloat on your end.

The tarantula-looking gaming routers/APs with quad core processors will typically massively outperform what's built into your cable/DSL modem.

Put your cable/DSL modem in bridge mode, disable its WiFi, and attach a high end gaming access point instead, and then Ethernet to the gaming WiFi access point, enable all gaming QoS related features you can and configure to prioritize the Ethernet traffic over the WiFI traffic. And the powerful processor in high end gaming routers will manage your bandwidth better. It helps. It won't eliminate the weak links beyond your control, but it can outperform the box that the ISP gave you. Yes, I've seen crappy routers with gigabit connections. Ouch.

Definitely hardwire to the Ethernet port though for your critical gaming machine though. Even the hardwiring to an Ethernet port of a typical $300+ 8-antenna WiFI router (those usually have mondoo powerful processors) will usually be superior to the router that came with your gigabit connection. Even better if you configure your gaming QoS feature -- that way when someone else tries to Netflix in the same household, it won't sacrifice your game nearly as much. Yes, you don't want to use WiFi for your more important critical competitive gaming sessions, but let's face it -- if you want a powerful chip in a router costing less than $1000, those consumer devices often have many antennas sticking out of them anyway (Or whatever MU-MIMO Deluxe II Phased Array Photon Torpedo thingy it has).

Consider the powerful chips built into these boxes as a bonus for helping your game, they usually tend to be superior to the Ethernet ports built into your cable modem, even many models of gigabit cable modems! So, definitely bride-mode your cable modem or DSL, and leave the routing heavy-lifting to a router with a powerful processor (all Ethernet and WiFi). Bonus -- At least you'll be giving others in the household much better WiFi reception while still be able to hog better QoS for yourself on the Ethernet ports. And yes, pay attention to the reviews of the router you buy, especially from people who play games.

You'd be surprised how many low end ISP routers add so much ping jitter (thanks to its slow chips falling behind in routijng-processing) even to its Ethernet ports especially when the chip is overworked trying to manage/filter/route the network/WiFi/etc crap going on. Even a low speed junk stream towards you can sometimes essentially almost "DDoS" a cheap router into wildly laggy pings as it struggles to process. In some cases, it doesn't take much incidential/accidential/ddos/junk traffic to ping-jitter a cheap router by 10ms+ (a full tick cycle or two in CS:GO) even on one of its Ethernet ports. A high end router with a fast processor will make that far less likely that your router becomes your ping-jitter weak link. Bridge-mode and WiFi-OFF your cable modem, let proper heavy duty gaming-caliber router handle that responsibility, to help minimize your ping jitter for your gaming needs.

You can also split your WiFi (i.e. if you need a mesh network router) and your Ethernet into two separate subnets too, and QoS-prioritize your Ethernet by bridge-moding your ISP router to a high-performance QoS-progammable Ethernet switch. Gaming Ethernet switches now exist, as an alternative too, but definitely still turn off the WiFi built into your ISP router, because that's going to ping-jitter your external WiFi switch. Do not be tempted to use your ISP's router as as a multiport Ethernet switch; it won't be as low ping-jitter as a high performance switch -- most ISP boxes is not giving you top-of-the-line Ethernet-switching performance. If you must use separate WiFi device and Ethernet device, make them 2nd and 3rd devices, with ISP router WiFi turned off, and it bridge-moded into the gaming Ethernet switch. These 3-device setups are a bit of a hassle, but you want to minimize the load on an underperforming ISP router and maximize Etheret gaming performance, while making sure to QoS your Ethernet above-and-beyond WiFI traffic. For myself, I just use a gaming-league router that acts both as an Ethernet switch and a WiFi access router (2-device setup), and simply bridge-mode my ISP router to it. But you can also bridge-mode your ISP router to a high performance / gaming Ethernet switch, and then also connect a separate WiFi router to that Ethernet switch too (3-device setup). The goal is to eliminate routing load on your ISP router by bringing it all the way down to minimum (bridge mode + WiFi OFF + one Ethernet link to separate high-performance router) -- and your ping jitter can be less.

Sure, the worst "gaming-router-in-name-only" pieces of plastic may underperform those highest-end fiber-WiFi access points that the best symmetric-gigabit ISPs are now giving out. But it's rare that an ISP router outperforms a typical $300 gaming router in ping stability (ping jitter) performance criteria.

You could become your net admin and buy a commercial business router device instead too, and become a Ph.D in configuring it towards your gaming. But I'm not going to bother playing with Cisco IOS scripts and the attendant university-league network training courses that sometimes go with that advanced stuff. I'll leave that fanatical level to the backbone engineers.

It won't solve everything, the networks will always be problematic, but you don't want your router to be the weak link.

P.S. I don't have symmetric gigabit fiber yet (a widespread deployment is coming soon though). But I do have gigabit cable now. One big problem is upstream is really slow (30 Mbps), which if saturated, will also severely ping-jitter the downstream. You'll have to network-manage that. Direct FTTH is better but if you're stuck on cable, get the biggest upstream pipe you can get. Even 360/50 Mbps down/up would be superior in ping-jitter to 1000/30 Mbps down/up, for better consistent-feel gaming purposes. Due to the major asymmetry, combined with the semi-shared nature of cable, variances in upstream saturation of a cable modem connection has a rather disproportionate effect on ping-jittering downstream, creating more major latency-feel changes during competitive gaming.

Even somebody merely using iCloud or texting a smartphone photos & videos from an iPhone/Android (connected via WiFi), actually briefly changes lagfeel in the middle of a competitive game, thanks to the way it often suddenly briefly saturates a cable modem upstream. Surprisingly, that upstream surge often interferes with cable modems more than somebody simply starting a Netflix stream. Mere outgoing texted photos being worse than a Netflix incoming stream -- that's how bad cable modems go ping-jittering when upstreams get saturated. If you're on Cable Internet *and* you are using any cloud services to sync things around (iCloud, OneDrive, Box, Dropbox, whatever) you definitely need to spend some money upgrading your network traffic management to protect your competitive game. To mitigate the odd chances that somebody in your household unwittingly interferes with the lag of your game -- you will want to mitigate that via QoS measures (including rate limiting) to prioritize your gaming computer (the Ethernet port on your high performance router connected to your gaming computer). Sometimes it's not easy to open a wallet and spend $200, $300, $500 on a proper gaming routing equipment that lets you prioritize your Ethernet port + maximum routing processing speeds. But it does help a bit. And sometimes a LOT.
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by 1000WATT » 31 Jan 2020, 06:11

Everything is decided easier. I concluded 2 contracts and 2 optical fibers and two routers go to my apartment. One for wifi devices and my wife's computer, the second only for my computer.
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

nick4567
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Re: CSGO feels like 60hz [Internet Latency Issues]

Post by nick4567 » 31 Jan 2020, 12:12

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
31 Jan 2020, 02:09
nick4567 wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 01:27
- get a 1Gb fibre broadband if you can
In addition to a gigabit ISP, get a high end router. One that performs fast and minimizes buffer bloat on your end.

The tarantula-looking gaming routers/APs with quad core processors will typically massively outperform what's built into your cable/DSL modem.

Put your cable/DSL modem in bridge mode, disable its WiFi, and attach a high end gaming access point instead, and then Ethernet to the gaming WiFi access point, enable all gaming QoS related features you can and configure to prioritize the Ethernet traffic over the WiFI traffic. And the powerful processor in high end gaming routers will manage your bandwidth better. It helps. It won't eliminate the weak links beyond your control, but it can outperform the box that the ISP gave you. Yes, I've seen crappy routers with gigabit connections. Ouch.

Definitely hardwire to the Ethernet port though for your critical gaming machine though. Even the hardwiring to an Ethernet port of a typical $300+ 8-antenna WiFI router (those usually have mondoo powerful processors) will usually be superior to the router that came with your gigabit connection. Even better if you configure your gaming QoS feature -- that way when someone else tries to Netflix in the same household, it won't sacrifice your game nearly as much. Yes, you don't want to use WiFi for your more important critical competitive gaming sessions, but let's face it -- if you want a powerful chip in a router costing less than $1000, those consumer devices often have many antennas sticking out of them anyway (Or whatever MU-MIMO Deluxe II Phased Array Photon Torpedo thingy it has).

Consider the powerful chips built into these boxes as a bonus for helping your game, they usually tend to be superior to the Ethernet ports built into your cable modem, even many models of gigabit cable modems! So, definitely bride-mode your cable modem or DSL, and leave the routing heavy-lifting to a router with a powerful processor (all Ethernet and WiFi). Bonus -- At least you'll be giving others in the household much better WiFi reception while still be able to hog better QoS for yourself on the Ethernet ports. And yes, pay attention to the reviews of the router you buy, especially from people who play games.

You'd be surprised how many low end ISP routers add so much ping jitter (thanks to its slow chips falling behind in routijng-processing) even to its Ethernet ports especially when the chip is overworked trying to manage/filter/route the network/WiFi/etc crap going on. Even a low speed junk stream towards you can sometimes essentially almost "DDoS" a cheap router into wildly laggy pings as it struggles to process. In some cases, it doesn't take much incidential/accidential/ddos/junk traffic to ping-jitter a cheap router by 10ms+ (a full tick cycle or two in CS:GO) even on one of its Ethernet ports. A high end router with a fast processor will make that far less likely that your router becomes your ping-jitter weak link. Bridge-mode and WiFi-OFF your cable modem, let proper heavy duty gaming-caliber router handle that responsibility, to help minimize your ping jitter for your gaming needs.

You can also split your WiFi (i.e. if you need a mesh network router) and your Ethernet into two separate subnets too, and QoS-prioritize your Ethernet by bridge-moding your ISP router to a high-performance QoS-progammable Ethernet switch. Gaming Ethernet switches now exist, as an alternative too, but definitely still turn off the WiFi built into your ISP router, because that's going to ping-jitter your external WiFi switch. Do not be tempted to use your ISP's router as as a multiport Ethernet switch; it won't be as low ping-jitter as a high performance switch -- most ISP boxes is not giving you top-of-the-line Ethernet-switching performance. If you must use separate WiFi device and Ethernet device, make them 2nd and 3rd devices, with ISP router WiFi turned off, and it bridge-moded into the gaming Ethernet switch. These 3-device setups are a bit of a hassle, but you want to minimize the load on an underperforming ISP router and maximize Etheret gaming performance, while making sure to QoS your Ethernet above-and-beyond WiFI traffic. For myself, I just use a gaming-league router that acts both as an Ethernet switch and a WiFi access router (2-device setup), and simply bridge-mode my ISP router to it. But you can also bridge-mode your ISP router to a high performance / gaming Ethernet switch, and then also connect a separate WiFi router to that Ethernet switch too (3-device setup). The goal is to eliminate routing load on your ISP router by bringing it all the way down to minimum (bridge mode + WiFi OFF + one Ethernet link to separate high-performance router) -- and your ping jitter can be less.

Sure, the worst "gaming-router-in-name-only" pieces of plastic may underperform those highest-end fiber-WiFi access points that the best symmetric-gigabit ISPs are now giving out. But it's rare that an ISP router outperforms a typical $300 gaming router in ping stability (ping jitter) performance criteria.

You could become your net admin and buy a commercial business router device instead too, and become a Ph.D in configuring it towards your gaming. But I'm not going to bother playing with Cisco IOS scripts and the attendant university-league network training courses that sometimes go with that advanced stuff. I'll leave that fanatical level to the backbone engineers.

It won't solve everything, the networks will always be problematic, but you don't want your router to be the weak link.

P.S. I don't have symmetric gigabit fiber yet (a widespread deployment is coming soon though). But I do have gigabit cable now. One big problem is upstream is really slow (30 Mbps), which if saturated, will also severely ping-jitter the downstream. You'll have to network-manage that. Direct FTTH is better but if you're stuck on cable, get the biggest upstream pipe you can get. Even 360/50 Mbps down/up would be superior in ping-jitter to 1000/30 Mbps down/up, for better consistent-feel gaming purposes. Due to the major asymmetry, combined with the semi-shared nature of cable, variances in upstream saturation of a cable modem connection has a rather disproportionate effect on ping-jittering downstream, creating more major latency-feel changes during competitive gaming.

Even somebody merely using iCloud or texting a smartphone photos & videos from an iPhone/Android (connected via WiFi), actually briefly changes lagfeel in the middle of a competitive game, thanks to the way it often suddenly briefly saturates a cable modem upstream. Surprisingly, that upstream surge often interferes with cable modems more than somebody simply starting a Netflix stream. Mere outgoing texted photos being worse than a Netflix incoming stream -- that's how bad cable modems go ping-jittering when upstreams get saturated. If you're on Cable Internet *and* you are using any cloud services to sync things around (iCloud, OneDrive, Box, Dropbox, whatever) you definitely need to spend some money upgrading your network traffic management to protect your competitive game. To mitigate the odd chances that somebody in your household unwittingly interferes with the lag of your game -- you will want to mitigate that via QoS measures (including rate limiting) to prioritize your gaming computer (the Ethernet port on your high performance router connected to your gaming computer). Sometimes it's not easy to open a wallet and spend $200, $300, $500 on a proper gaming routing equipment that lets you prioritize your Ethernet port + maximum routing processing speeds. But it does help a bit. And sometimes a LOT.
while i agree that better routers and such may help i think the problem is in interleaving which is also a technology in coax cable and not dsl specific see https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/d ... 19220.html ping is only an estimate of your actual delay icmp echos dont carry information they are used as measurements only udp packets carry information to the server like what you are doing at that specific moment in time in the game (your player model position wether or not you are shooting your gun etc...), when these packets are tampered with more severly the server cant compensate (so the recoil will seem off, as well as your aim/movement etc...) bc your at odds with what the server sees and what you are actually doing bc of the out of order packets, artificial delays etc... things that reduce error rates would be better modems/routers and better cables (ethernet/coax) if the cables are damaged any sort of cable the ones in the walls the ones that connect from modem to wall the cables outside are damaged then error rates will get higher and cause the interleaving to go up however congestion is also an issue, these days i dont know how isps deal with congestion but in game issues aswell as browsing the internet and what not seems really slow even without the ping changing so whatever theyre doing is effecting udp specifically and not icmp echos, also on cable the highest interleaving depths on raise icmp echo ping by 5ms so it becomes an even bigger struggle if youre on cable to figure out you have internet issues

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