Re: 500hz Mouse on 240hz monitor
Posted: 11 Mar 2018, 16:57
I heard finalmouse will release a tool at some point where you can upgrade your finalmouse ultralight pro from 500hz to 1000hz. Btw, It seems very interesting mouse!
Who you gonna call? The Blur Busters! For Everything Better Than 60Hz™
https://forums.blurbusters.com/
That is so stupid... They probably want it to seem like a "free upgrade" that they are giving you. Not a big fan of manipulative companies.mulz wrote:I heard finalmouse will release a tool at some point where you can upgrade your finalmouse ultralight pro from 500hz to 1000hz. Btw, It seems very interesting mouse!
Chief, I've gotta say I've been giving your post quite a bit of thought over the last little while and I wanted to throw in a few more pieces to the puzzle. The situation is even less clear in-game.Chief Blur Buster wrote:
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TL;DR: Your mileage will vary with 500 Hz mice on 240 Hz displays. But why do mouse manufacturers stay that low?
What if I create a custom resolution with 250hz?Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 10:58It's really hard to say.BlazeGaming wrote:Thank you, so from a scale from 1 to 10, how much am I cucking myself for getting 500hz only?Sparky wrote:There's an additional 0.5ms of average input lag an 1ms of variation in input lag, compared to 1000hz. In game it's probably only noticeable statistically, though you may be able to notice the beat frequency effect on cursor movement. Every 25 refreshes there will be two refreshes with an extra poll worth of motion thrown in, instead of 4 refreshes with the extra poll at 1khz(though half as severe)
Its mind boggling in 2018 they don't release all mice with 1000hz, high end mice that is.
500 Hz can have extremely good positional accuracy.
The best 500 Hz mice can outperform a common 1000 Hz gaming mouse.
But we've got a problem: Refresh rates converging on mouse poll rates.
It's just not always enough positions-per-second for 240Hz monitors especially when you're playing games that can blast-out more frames than mouse polls per second -- e.g. CS:GO will have some frametimes less than 1/500sec.
What you will need to do is try out all the favourite gaming mice and figure out if the quality of the 500 Hz sufficiently outweighs the lack of 1000 Hz. Also, some 500 Hz mice can be overclocked to 1000 Hz with no problems so in theory you could try doing the same with this mouse, too.
Also, in Windows desktop use, you will notice a very noticeable 10 full-jump mouse-skips per seconds when doing things like dragging around a window (e.g. 10 microstutters per second during VSYNC ON operation) since 500 MOD 240 = 10. 250 is a harmonic frequency of 500, and 250 MOD 240 is 10 beats a second on the harmonic. So for a specific mouse movement speed, if your mouse cursor moves at 10 pixels per refresh cycle during window dragging, you'll see about ten times a second that the window dragging jumps forward a few extra pixels (e.g. 15 or 20 pixels) instead of 10. Which means 10 microstutters a second.
This matters less for VSYNC OFF gaming, but as we know, CS:GO runs at really high framerates. As CS:GO modulates through the harmonic framerates (e.g. 166fps, 250fps, 333fps) of the mouse poll rate, there might be mousefeel variances. If your framerate is consistent, then 500 Hz may not matter much but if your framerate fluctuates all over the place, you don't want harmonic-frequency and beat-frequency effects affecting your aim.
Look at the divisor framerates (harmonics) that you typically fluctuate through. Distant harmonics like fifth-order harmonics (e.g. 100fps with 500Hz mice) will have no noticeable effects, but close harmonics such as second-order harmonics definitely has mousefeel problems (e.g. 250fps with 500Hz mice).
As your VSYNC OFF game varies in framerates, you're fluctuating through those second-order, third-order and fourth-order harmonic framerates when playing CS:GO which can easily achieve 166fps (third-order harmonic of 500Hz) and 250fps (second-order harmonic of 500Hz) and you will have amplified beat-frequency microstutter effects from the mouse poll rate. Worst at beat-frequency (e.g. 498fps @ 500Hz poll, since 500/2 = 250), bad at second-order harmonic (252 fps @ 500 Hz poll), tolerable at third-order harmonic (e.g. 165fps @ 500 Hz poll since 500/3=166.6), etc, etc.
At 10 pixels per frame mouse movement speed, framerate slightly different from a given harmonic:
Beating near full frequency (500), microstutter amplitude is full frame-jump (e.g. 10-10-10-20-10-10-10 pixels)
Beating near second order harmonic (250), microstutter amplitude is half frame-jump (e.g. 10-10-10-15-10-10-10 pixels)
Beating near third order harmonic (166), microstutter amplitude is third frame-jump (e.g. 10-10-10-13-10-10-10 pixels)
etc.
I also saw a similar effect with 1000 Hz mice on my 480 Hz monitor tests. The closer a mousepoll gets to refreshrate, the bigger the mouse microstutters become on the harmonic-effects and beat-frequency effects.
That's why you need overkill mouse Hz. You prefer a 2000 Hz mouse (if it has great positional accuracy) with 240 Hz monitors, ideally. But sensors do degrade in positional accuracy at higher mouse Hz. That's why some eSports mouse manufacturers prefer to do 500 Hz, because of the insanely good positional accuracy. But that doesn't help us 240 Hz monitor users too much! And such mice will be crap for 480 Hz monitors.
So, you gotta keep mouse Hz well above display Hz, especially if you're dealing with precision (e.g. strobing, VSYNC ON) or dealing with massive framerate fluctuation (e.g. VSYNC OFF causing framerates to go towards/away from harmonic frequencies)
I wonder if this is an additional factor why very certain eSports players have reported mousefeel problems with 240Hz monitors too (lag is part of it, but not the whole story -- it's a very complex and multilayered apparently -- with many causes layering upon each other)
TL;DR: Your mileage will vary with 500 Hz mice on 240 Hz displays. But why do mouse manufacturers stay that low?
250Hz actually has very good motion dynamics when relatively pollrate-synchronized to gaming mice.
I have the 390hz monitor from Acer.Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 16:23250Hz actually has very good motion dynamics when relatively pollrate-synchronized to gaming mice.
So does 500Hz (which is why the BOE 500Hz display is fairly exciting, as a divisor of 1000Hz, 2000Hz, 4000hz and 8000Hz gaming mice).
Very few 240Hz displays not advertised as overclockable (i.e. 280Hz) can do 250Hz. However, give it a try with reduced porches and see if you can get that far.
Most of the time you need a "280Hz+ overclockable" to get the 250Hz mode.
Pollrate, refreshrate, and framerate mismatches can add mouse jitter. As we push the refresh rate race to retina refresh rates, tiny jitter becomes more visible when persistence-blur becomes low (ultra high frame rates at ultra high Hz, or the use of strobing).
You however, have to use VSYNC ON or RTSS Scanline Sync and/or a microsecond-accurate framerate capper to notice (e.g. RTSS capping instead of in-game capping).
If I'm using one of the new BOE/ASUS 500Hz displays, I no longer need to upgrade from a 1000Hz polling mouse to mitigate jitter problems? Awesome!Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 16:23So does 500Hz (which is why the BOE 500Hz display is fairly exciting, as a divisor of 1000Hz, 2000Hz, 4000hz and 8000Hz gaming mice).