internet latency & effects on hit registration

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Mar 2021, 00:58

heavywe wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 11:48
I think I found the cause of my input lag at 99%. And yes, what causes me the input lag is a network cable that I bought about 5 years ago, it is a cat5e UTP network cable.
While a bad Ethernet cable (packet loss) can sometimes create erratic latency -- it is probably unlikely.

The culprit is usually the ISP routing (sometimes fixed by gaming VPN) or your latency wildly different from everyone else on the same server.

There are situations where LTE feels better than FTTH, and vice-versa -- and traced to all kinds of reasons including Internet routing, etc.
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Mar 2021, 01:04

victor910 wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 19:14
the most affected gameplay experience is jitter, this will say for you any game developer or network engineer.
I see 6ms jitter at starlink speed test, this type of network connection is garbage for network multiplayer, in summary with 50ms delay, you will mad I am guarantee.
Theoretically you can build a network conditioner between yourself and an intermediate server (like a VPS hosting account) to pre de-jitter your network jitter by dynamically adding/removing latency to zero-out the satellite-hop latency jitter. I can de-jitter 10ms ISP jitter to <1ms ISP jitter this way. But this is advanced-user setup.

Starlink jitter is the satellite hop, so it's a known jitterfactor between you and your own custom VPS server (which you can then WireGuard VPN tunnel hop to a high speed gaming VPN). So you can program a custom network conditioner to pre-dejitter that.

Now, if your choice is microwave-backhauled rural 3G/4G with 15ms jitter, it's pretty stellar. Besides, other Starlink users are reporting lower jitter ranging from 2ms-5ms. While there are others reporting worse jitter.

Again, Starlink is a beta, so they're improving it. As more satellites orbit each satellite plane, the latency differences between adjacent satelites will diminish. At 12,000 satellites, lag jitter should be lower than at ~1000 satellites.

Here is another Starlink user, slower bandwidth but lower network jitter and lower ping.

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victor910
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by victor910 » 30 Mar 2021, 01:53

starlink will unlimited or pay by metering traffic?

mello
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by mello » 30 Mar 2021, 09:33

victor910 wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 19:14
the most affected gameplay experience is jitter, this will say for you any game developer or network engineer.
I see 6ms jitter at starlink speed test, this type of network connection is garbage for network multiplayer, in summary with 50ms delay, you will mad I am guarantee.
I don't think that is true. I think that majority of game developers & network engineers have no idea what kind of network problems FPS players are experiencing. Most think that everything, gaming wise, revolves around latency, packet loss and jitter, which is obviously not true. This is why certain network issues are still not fixed and they do persist for nearly 20 years. I still think that proper UDP packet handling and delivery is crucial and even more important than jitter is.

I have 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection. All A+ on dslreports speed test, no packet loss, no lags, rock solid & stable ping ~12ms and jitter according to my router's (RT-AX88U) speed test is between 0.10ms to 0.60ms and yet, fps gaming for 95% of the time is crappy / almost unplayable / barely playable. The major problem is tragic hit registration (empty bullets phenomenon) & completely incorrect enemy player positioning (you see them way too late essentially, not in real time manner), which i think is due to UDP packet loss / late & out of date UDP packets / UDP out-of-order packet delivery. I even use Asuswrt-Merlin firmware with lots of add-ons & CakeQOS, which has no impact on these issues. But when i'm using two different mobile connections (both different ISP's) with higher pings, higher jitter and somewhat laggy (ping variation & ping spikes), the hit registration problem & incorrect enemy player positioning is vastly improved / nearly fixed. Of course mobile connection has its own issues, it is less stable, less consistent, unplayable at times due to lags, but it looks like it does not have same problems with UDP packet handling (or to the same degree) that my 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection has and my all other wired connections had. I have observed the same thing when using certain VPNs, the improvement when it comes to hit registration & enemy model positioning is starking and easily noticeable. I will be testing WireGuard VPN's soon.

When it comes to competitive / pro gaming i would much prefer a stable ~50-60ms connection (or in some games with even higher ping) if the connection provides perfect / near perfect hit registration and correct enemy model positioning, to what i have now. I would trade my perfect looking 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection (on paper & based on all the stats i have provided) for any stable connection that provides perfect hit reg & correct enemy model positioning in FPS games.

skkiNN
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by skkiNN » 30 Mar 2021, 13:55

mello wrote:
30 Mar 2021, 09:33
victor910 wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 19:14
the most affected gameplay experience is jitter, this will say for you any game developer or network engineer.
I see 6ms jitter at starlink speed test, this type of network connection is garbage for network multiplayer, in summary with 50ms delay, you will mad I am guarantee.
I don't think that is true. I think that majority of game developers & network engineers have no idea what kind of network problems FPS players are experiencing. Most think that everything, gaming wise, revolves around latency, packet loss and jitter, which is obviously not true. This is why certain network issues are still not fixed and they do persist for nearly 20 years. I still think that proper UDP packet handling and delivery is crucial and even more important than jitter is.

I have 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection. All A+ on dslreports speed test, no packet loss, no lags, rock solid & stable ping ~12ms and jitter according to my router's (RT-AX88U) speed test is between 0.10ms to 0.60ms and yet, fps gaming for 95% of the time is crappy / almost unplayable / barely playable. The major problem is tragic hit registration (empty bullets phenomenon) & completely incorrect enemy player positioning (you see them way too late essentially, not in real time manner), which i think is due to UDP packet loss / late & out of date UDP packets / UDP out-of-order packet delivery. I even use Asuswrt-Merlin firmware with lots of add-ons & CakeQOS, which has no impact on these issues. But when i'm using two different mobile connections (both different ISP's) with higher pings, higher jitter and somewhat laggy (ping variation & ping spikes), the hit registration problem & incorrect enemy player positioning is vastly improved / nearly fixed. Of course mobile connection has its own issues, it is less stable, less consistent, unplayable at times due to lags, but it looks like it does not have same problems with UDP packet handling (or to the same degree) that my 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection has and my all other wired connections had. I have observed the same thing when using certain VPNs, the improvement when it comes to hit registration & enemy model positioning is starking and easily noticeable. I will be testing WireGuard VPN's soon.

When it comes to competitive / pro gaming i would much prefer a stable ~50-60ms connection (or in some games with even higher ping) if the connection provides perfect / near perfect hit registration and correct enemy model positioning, to what i have now. I would trade my perfect looking 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection (on paper & based on all the stats i have provided) for any stable connection that provides perfect hit reg & correct enemy model positioning in FPS games.
Mello i think you are right man. I have the same connection as you and since 2003 im having all these problems.... Lets us know if something changes with that vpn u mentioned (WireGuard protocol), i pray in yours knowledge.

Unreazz
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by Unreazz » 31 Mar 2021, 06:49

mello wrote:
30 Mar 2021, 09:33
victor910 wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 19:14
the most affected gameplay experience is jitter, this will say for you any game developer or network engineer.
I see 6ms jitter at starlink speed test, this type of network connection is garbage for network multiplayer, in summary with 50ms delay, you will mad I am guarantee.
I don't think that is true. I think that majority of game developers & network engineers have no idea what kind of network problems FPS players are experiencing. Most think that everything, gaming wise, revolves around latency, packet loss and jitter, which is obviously not true. This is why certain network issues are still not fixed and they do persist for nearly 20 years. I still think that proper UDP packet handling and delivery is crucial and even more important than jitter is.

I have 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection. All A+ on dslreports speed test, no packet loss, no lags, rock solid & stable ping ~12ms and jitter according to my router's (RT-AX88U) speed test is between 0.10ms to 0.60ms and yet, fps gaming for 95% of the time is crappy / almost unplayable / barely playable. The major problem is tragic hit registration (empty bullets phenomenon) & completely incorrect enemy player positioning (you see them way too late essentially, not in real time manner), which i think is due to UDP packet loss / late & out of date UDP packets / UDP out-of-order packet delivery. I even use Asuswrt-Merlin firmware with lots of add-ons & CakeQOS, which has no impact on these issues. But when i'm using two different mobile connections (both different ISP's) with higher pings, higher jitter and somewhat laggy (ping variation & ping spikes), the hit registration problem & incorrect enemy player positioning is vastly improved / nearly fixed. Of course mobile connection has its own issues, it is less stable, less consistent, unplayable at times due to lags, but it looks like it does not have same problems with UDP packet handling (or to the same degree) that my 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection has and my all other wired connections had. I have observed the same thing when using certain VPNs, the improvement when it comes to hit registration & enemy model positioning is starking and easily noticeable. I will be testing WireGuard VPN's soon.

When it comes to competitive / pro gaming i would much prefer a stable ~50-60ms connection (or in some games with even higher ping) if the connection provides perfect / near perfect hit registration and correct enemy model positioning, to what i have now. I would trade my perfect looking 1Gb/1Gb fiber connection (on paper & based on all the stats i have provided) for any stable connection that provides perfect hit reg & correct enemy model positioning in FPS games.


pls share youre expierences with us if you found out something which is helpfull, no matter what it is even if its a VPN

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n1zoo
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by n1zoo » 02 Apr 2021, 06:42

blackmagic wrote:
02 Apr 2021, 00:47
FIX 1: short way

VARIABLE = \\.\Global\Internet Connection\UDP Throttle
VALUE= /Word-32_Bits, 60,000,000_Bits_Per_Second


has someone idea if this variable and value has some effect ?


you probably too saw this tweaks from this guy > https://allgamesinternetfix.wordpress.com/

i find the most interesting part where he says this >

All faults go to microsoft they not optimized connections for long distance. It is just resume to some internet tweaks to have good gameplay with high latency betwen 20-100+.

Microsoft put a standard settings for internet to everyone, but it is optimized for short distance to have good speeds, it was pretty stupid to make this for long distance but tremendous usefull for profesional gamers who are far in Europe like Romania , Ukralne, Bulgaria, Serbia and others.


is there some truth about this ?
and is this all still up to date with windows 10 ?


idk but tried the short way fix and after restart i could feel for 2 matches a full advantage over others...
this all just makes me more believe that something is wrong going on with UDP in my system and somehow maybe it overloads itself or drops in speed or something else weird going on with...but i somehow have this feel that this UDP problem starts in my system and a reboot has somehow a posetive effect and fixes it for a time and if start a online game session...then it gets only worse and worse...this is the evil circle here that cause to me only headache.


how to test and make sure that everything is all right with UDP in my system and nothing bad happens with it on output ?
Did this many years ago. Full placebo like 99% internet tweaks

wadge
Posts: 107
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Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by wadge » 02 Apr 2021, 14:20

blackmagic wrote:
02 Apr 2021, 00:47
FIX 1: short way

VARIABLE = \\.\Global\Internet Connection\UDP Throttle
VALUE= /Word-32_Bits, 60,000,000_Bits_Per_Second


has someone idea if this variable and value has some effect ?


you probably too saw this tweaks from this guy > https://allgamesinternetfix.wordpress.com/

i find the most interesting part where he says this >

All faults go to microsoft they not optimized connections for long distance. It is just resume to some internet tweaks to have good gameplay with high latency betwen 20-100+.

Microsoft put a standard settings for internet to everyone, but it is optimized for short distance to have good speeds, it was pretty stupid to make this for long distance but tremendous usefull for profesional gamers who are far in Europe like Romania , Ukralne, Bulgaria, Serbia and others.


is there some truth about this ?
and is this all still up to date with windows 10 ?


idk but tried the short way fix and after restart i could feel for 2 matches a full advantage over others...
this all just makes me more believe that something is wrong going on with UDP in my system and somehow maybe it overloads itself or drops in speed or something else weird going on with...but i somehow have this feel that this UDP problem starts in my system and a reboot has somehow a posetive effect and fixes it for a time and if start a online game session...then it gets only worse and worse...this is the evil circle here that cause to me only headache.


how to test and make sure that everything is all right with UDP in my system and nothing bad happens with it on output ?

I exactly experienced the same issue... always the first game of the day feels alright with hitreg but as soon as the first game ends hitregs start to feel bad...
Had this issue with different pc setup, different places, different isp. Tried all tweaks possible...
So i came to the same conclusion, something might throttle UDP packet or some sort and the question is, how would it be possible to measure this ?

silikone
Posts: 57
Joined: 02 Aug 2014, 12:27

Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by silikone » 02 Apr 2021, 17:36

Is there any data on how local networking gear can affect latency and jitter? Is there any proof that some NIC's, cables, and switches can tangibly compromise the experience?

MatrixQW
Posts: 278
Joined: 07 Jan 2019, 10:01

Re: internet latency & effects on hit registration

Post by MatrixQW » 02 Apr 2021, 19:19

wadge wrote:
02 Apr 2021, 14:20
So i came to the same conclusion, something might throttle UDP packet or some sort and the question is, how would it be possible to measure this ?
https://ttcshelbyville.wordpress.com/20 ... ing-index/

Disable Windows Network Throttling Index if you haven't.
I know for sure this affects the game I play because it has advanced network statistics and ping deviation keeps jumping from 0.4ms to 2.0ms.
With that feature 'off', it's solid 0.4ms.

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