[EXPERIMENT]Keyboard latency at different debounce settings

[deama]

Yes at 1000hz you've got 1ms latency at 500hz you're at 2ms latency but if you've got a debounce delay of 10ms or 20ms - whatever it is, the polling rate is only a small delay in the overall chain. As I've said it depends when the debounce delay is added, I don't know the answer to that question.
The biggest delay is your reaction time which will be around 200ms but you could argue with such a large delay to visual stimulus you need every bit of help possible.

I like the idea of minimal travel keys and light touch keys, what I found with cherry reds was I was constantly accidentally pressing buttons, I'm used to cherry browns. That's where the Apex pro is going to win with the adjustable actuation point, I could perhaps keep moving this up bit by bit until I'm at the limit where the travel distance is reduced and I don't keep hitting buttons accidentally.

I'm surprised Razer is doing this i.e. not offering 1000Hz on it's own, all the gaming boards I've had you enable gaming mode with a key combo or a separate button. You might be able to use AutoHotkey to map a different button to the windows button, all depending on how Razer is blocking this, I guess it's likely Razer is blocking it from the keyboard itself, so it's likely AutoHotKey would work. Then again you're putting more software in the chain of key processing, no idea if that will add some latency ?

I'll see if I can try their forums, maybe they got some help or something.
I actually use bloody b975, the actuation distance feels pretty low, it feels like you can press the button 1/3rd of the way and it registers. I mainly got it for the low advertised latency, I was hoping it'd be less than 5ms, but from the testing that one of the guys here did, he says it's about 11.5ms or so, which seems to be pretty fast at least, faster than most mice too, donno if he tested at 500hz or 1000hz, probably 500hz as that's the default?

[MegaWatt]

I almost bought a bloody b975, what put me off was I found out the Razer huntsman uses the same optical switches, although looking at the Razer site today they appear to have different optical switch versions - a clicky one and a linear one. Although I guess if it's still using the same internal opticals then the same key chatter / debounce would still exist.

Was the 11ms for the bloody b975 an absolute value from button push to being registered in Windows or a game ? the other thing I find annoying about the actuation point game is why have so much travel to bottoming out a key, surely if you bottom out a key there's more travel time in the upwards direction. I always bottom out my cherry browns when gaming.

[deama]

I almost bought a bloody b975, what put me off was I found out the Razer huntsman uses the same optical switches, although looking at the Razer site today they appear to have different optical switch versions - a clicky one and a linear one. Although I guess if it's still using the same internal opticals then the same key chatter / debounce would still exist.

Was the 11ms for the bloody b975 an absolute value from button push to being registered in Windows or a game ? the other thing I find annoying about the actuation point game is why have so much travel to bottoming out a key, surely if you bottom out a key there's more travel time in the upwards direction. I always bottom out my cherry browns when gaming.

It's the OP guy here that tested the bloody keyboard, I believe his test method tests the entire process, including debounce?
At 11ms that's pretty good for a keyboard, that's about what high quality mice go up to.

just tested the Bloody B930 at around 11ms
My test isn't accurate enough to find the winner between the logitech G pro and B930 but the linear switches on the B930 are a big step up from the Romer-G's. They are really smooth and light which might make the B930 feel faster even though the object latency is around the same

[MegaWatt]

oh I see, I looked at the OP's results again, I guess there's a potential error factor based on frame times etc but the fact there's a detectable difference between the boards he tested is the important thing to note. Whether the bloody is actually 11ms or less, it's no worse than the best keyboard tested, shame he didn't test the Apex Pro, for me that's t the only upgrade I can see from a Fnatic mini streak.

I've used Cooler master, Razer, Corsair, Logitech, Hyper-X boards in the past and I can tell the Fnatic mini streak feels and performs easily as good as all the other boards I've used.

It's interesting that in the UK the Apex Pro TKL is sold out everywhere, can't get one even if I had the spare cash. I can see this product making a massive dent in their competition, all the other manufacturers have got to come up with something as good fairly soon, otherwise I can see their sales will plummet like a lead balloon. Seems the word is out about which keyboard is the one to get.

The only other switch I'm curious about is the low profile cherry switches, these kind of solve the bottoming out distance problem i.e. less button travel to get past the actuation point.

[MegaWatt]

Actually fitting O rings solves the button travel problem i.e. less travel when taking your finger off the button.

[senny22]

I've had the Apex Pro TKL for a couple of days now and could test something if anyone wants me to.

[MegaWatt]

What sort of test @senny22 are you able to do ? the question I have is simply does it offer any lower latency compared to other gaming boards ? does it feel more responsive compared to a similar caliber gaming board ? tricky one to be objective about seeing as you've got the perceived best / fastest gaming board, this is why we need measurements.

Logically with a higher actuation point you might be able to start an action in a game faster compared to a lower actuation point, but the other thoughts I have are -

1) You can start an action faster but if you bottom the button out does that mean you'll finish the action slower because of the extra button travel past the actuation point. So any slight advantage of the higher actuation is negated by the slower return past the actuation point. Once you've made a decision to press a button, so 150ms to 200ms I wonder how many ms it takes for your finger to move the button and how long it takes for the button to move past the actuation point upwards and downwards. So some high speed camera footage for finger movements while in an intense gaming fight. I guess though if the board gives you lets say a 10ms advantage then that's 10ms less time.

2) High actuation point is good apart from when you accidentally catch other keys when moving your fingers to other keys, so I wonder if you'll end up picking a cherry MX actuation point or there about. I'm used to cherry browns so I tend to rest my fingers on the buttons, I'd have a learning curve not doubt for the Apex Pro, still it's good to have the option to try different actuation points.

In general I'd like to hear your experience of the Apex Pro, best keyboard you've ever had ? or feels about the same as other boards apart from the variable actuation point etc.

[deama]

An input lag test against other high end keyboards would be nice indeed.

[senny22]

What sort of test @senny22 are you able to do ? the question I have is simply does it offer any lower latency compared to other gaming boards ?

1) You can start an action faster but if you bottom the button out does that mean you'll finish the action slower because of the extra button travel past the actuation point. So any slight advantage of the higher actuation is negated by the slower return past the actuation point. Once you've made a decision to press a button, so 150ms to 200ms I wonder how many ms it takes for your finger to move the button and how long it takes for the button to move past the actuation point upwards and downwards. So some high speed camera footage for finger movements while in an intense gaming fight. I guess though if the board gives you lets say a 10ms advantage then that's 10ms less time.

2) High actuation point is good apart from when you accidentally catch other keys when moving your fingers to other keys, so I wonder if you'll end up picking a cherry MX actuation point or there about. I'm used to cherry browns so I tend to rest my fingers on the buttons, I'd have a learning curve not doubt for the Apex Pro, still it's good to have the option to try different actuation points.

In general I'd like to hear your experience of the Apex Pro, best keyboard you've ever had ? or feels about the same as other boards apart from the variable actuation point etc.

I posted my testing here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7142&p=53832#p53832

1) You're probably right in regards to actuation point but I do believe the keyboard is faster even when actuation point would be the same as some other mechanical switch due to lower debouncing / response time (see my testing). In CS:GO you stop / slow down when pressing the opposite key (i.e. "a" to stop when moving right with "d") so you'd probably get benefit there as well but I dunno.

When having the finger in the air and deliberately pressing pretty fast down on the key it would take around 4-5 ms from me hitting the keycap to bottoming out. I'm not sure how fast you press in game though when the finger is already resting on the keycaps and you're perhaps not necessarily trying to press the key fast. I can't imagine though that a faster actuation would lower the input delay by more than 5 ms max, probably more like 3 ms.

2) This I was very worried about before buying the keyboard but I can safely say that it hasn't been an issue at all. in around 15h of gameplay I've only miss-pressed once (pressed "3" in a fight so I brought out my knife and lost) For typing I'd prefer something around 4-7 actuation force instead but thankfully I've got the change binded on my keyboard so I can change with the press of a button (or rather 2 buttons hehe)

Best keyboard I've ever had? For gaming, yes absolutely. For typing, I'd still prefer my Blue switches if I'm typing something longer like an essay. Though I have to say I don't think I'll ever want to use regular linear switches though as the smoothness of the OmniPoint Switches is absolutely amazing.

[senny22]

An input lag test against other high end keyboards would be nice indeed.

See my testing here for the keyboards I had available: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7142&p=53832#p53832