Sorry, but you have been misdiagnosed. You are not EMI positive, you have been infected with "shitty internet".agendarsky wrote: ↑08 Jan 2021, 20:06I just came to say hello. Im 27 year old fps addict and im a EMI positive. Same story here i tried 6 different builds since 2011 more like 8000 euro wasted with all thoose pc builds , mouses, sound cards..., pc player since 1998 , cs player since 2003. I literally grew up on cs and orange box games. I spend like year and 3 months on tweaking windows you know messsing with registries, timers , pinning drivers to different cores and still everything was temporary. Then i found some articles about emi , bought power strip with emi filter and was overhyped for 7 days until its starts to get shitty again. So here i am. Hello guys
[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
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This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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IMPORTANT:
This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
300 mbps stable , 40 upload stable, 5 ms ping to austria, 25 to sweden ( im from slovakia). Pc responsiveness during day feels like having enabled hpet in windows, things get better at night.
Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
how can you say that after to many topics i dont get it internet xDDDDDDD.... i am donemello wrote: ↑10 Jan 2021, 10:14Sorry, but you have been misdiagnosed. You are not EMI positive, you have been infected with "shitty internet".agendarsky wrote: ↑08 Jan 2021, 20:06I just came to say hello. Im 27 year old fps addict and im a EMI positive. Same story here i tried 6 different builds since 2011 more like 8000 euro wasted with all thoose pc builds , mouses, sound cards..., pc player since 1998 , cs player since 2003. I literally grew up on cs and orange box games. I spend like year and 3 months on tweaking windows you know messsing with registries, timers , pinning drivers to different cores and still everything was temporary. Then i found some articles about emi , bought power strip with emi filter and was overhyped for 7 days until its starts to get shitty again. So here i am. Hello guys
Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
Because this is exactly the case for the vast majority of people who have these problems. It is the "shitty internet", period. In a rare cases, where same problems also do occur when gaming offline, moving mouse on desktop etc. then yeah, this is most likely some kind of interference related to power / EMI. You need to realize that EVERY SINGLE issue that is being reported, is always directly related to the performance issues when gaming online. No one has EVER said or started a thread related to these issues and pointed out that he feels some weird "input lag" (or apparent mouse problems) on desktop or when using Adobe Photoshop for example.
Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
Internet speed and ping is completely irrelevant here. Search the forums where i explain why that is the case.agendarsky wrote: ↑10 Jan 2021, 11:10300 mbps stable , 40 upload stable, 5 ms ping to austria, 25 to sweden ( im from slovakia). Pc responsiveness during day feels like having enabled hpet in windows, things get better at night.
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
Man..... it happens also when ethernet cable is not connected.
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
This used to be true 2019
But actually.... Apparently, this ceased to be true in the last 12 months when Blur Busters Forums traffic surged (stay-at-home COVID traffic) and we have found a few threads about this.
As of 2020, there are at least four members here (over the last 12 months) who seems to getting weird input lag and/or hard-to-diagnose stutter even disconnected from Ethernet/WiFi/Internet.
The recent talk compelled me to create some posts on the EMI topic matter, complete with caveats & acknowledgement:
Post 1 | Post 2 | Post 3 | Post 4 | Post 5
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
What i meant was, as a primary issue. I'm well aware of people who, apart from having "input-lag" like issues with online gaming, also have them on desktop or when using other applications. This obviously suggests non internet related problems, possibly caused by interference from power / EMI. What i haven't seen though is, someone starting a thread and mentioning these issues occuring only on desktop and in non-gaming applications, while omitting online gaming inconsistencies & in-game performance entirely. I know from experience, that these issues involve a lot of cases of placebo, because these problems seem to be varying in severity or going away periodically, then coming back, which is a big problem if you trying to fix this while making all kinds of changes to your hardware, bios, game or windows settings. Most people are basically chasing their own tails, thinking that they have changed something, it helped, but later again the problem is back once again. They keep doing this, but eventually problem is never fixed as it always comes back and then goes away (or severity is reduced) on its own. And because of that i would be very wary about people's claims, as placebo is very strong and convincing at times and i have experienced that myself many times throughout the years. In fact, i have seen so many crazy, illogical and irrational things & claims made by people (did a few of them myself ^^) so i understand from where they are coming from. It is all coming from a constant frustration, helplessness and inability to do anything. I'm pretty sure that, you as a forum owner, also have seen "solutions", "fixes" or claims that simply cannot be true. So yes, i'm 100% sure that some people have become crazy to the point, that they are able to convince themselves about things that are simply not true. And with my recent discovery regarding gaming via mobile internet, where all these issues disappear instantly and i would be able to AB test it always with 100% accuracy, means that we are all back into square one... meaning that the issue that started happening to people in the early 2000's was (as was always suspected) caused by internet performance issues related to gaming packets interference (by the ISP's software most likely, which is designed to mitigate network congestion), which then basically makes online gaming broken and unplayable for some people.Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑10 Jan 2021, 14:20This used to be true 2019
But actually.... Apparently, this ceased to be true in the last 12 months when Blur Busters Forums traffic surged (stay-at-home COVID traffic) and we have found a few threads about this.
As of 2020, there are at least four members here who is getting weird input lag even disconnected from Ethernet/WiFi/Internet.
Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
That is funny. I have a discord of near 70 members with this issue, and it is certainly not internet. You can fully disconnect internet and its all still there. The only person that fixed it (like fully mitigated the symptoms- we still have no idea what the source is) did so with chemical grounding. He had all the classic symptoms of desync and input lag. Maybe you should listen to me and consider what I have to say. That thread nicko started about net issues, he got a dedicated line (T1 connection) and still same problem. Then he started to realize it simply was not internet. He lifted ground prong to PC and the issue improved a ton (temporarily). What does this show? It is not the network. There is something causing this that is electrical in nature and many people suffer it. I strongly urge you to try some of the tests we have spoken about just to see for yourself.mello wrote: ↑10 Jan 2021, 13:09Because this is exactly the case for the vast majority of people who have these problems. It is the "shitty internet", period. In a rare cases, where same problems also do occur when gaming offline, moving mouse on desktop etc. then yeah, this is most likely some kind of interference related to power / EMI. You need to realize that EVERY SINGLE issue that is being reported, is always directly related to the performance issues when gaming online. No one has EVER said or started a thread related to these issues and pointed out that he feels some weird "input lag" (or apparent mouse problems) on desktop or when using Adobe Photoshop for example.
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Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag
Another thing -- the problem is confirming EMI-based sources is horrendously difficult, with the low-lying apples already troubleshooted-out by the big vendors such as NVIDIA (papers, citations, etc), leaving behind the harder-to-diagnose EMI sources that aren't uncovered by beta testers.
Definitely, a larger proportion of the time, lag comes from Internet/online based issues, though.
I am crossposting the quickly-growing problem, which becomes a bigger weak link because of Vicious Cycle Effect (higher Hz + higher resolutions + wider FOV = tinier disruptions visible where it wasn't before). As you might be familiar with the The Amazing Human Visible Feats Of The Millisecond, much tinier flaws become unveiled above the human visible noisefloor with displays that simultaneously have clearer spatial AND temporal resolution.
I have increasingly personally witnessed strange microfreezing (stutter, but also tantamount to randomized lag) when a computer was near ultrastrong EMI sources, so I would have to surmise that at least a meaningful number out of a million people, must get some equivalent.
It's those users who fall through the holes of beta tests, the typical corporate EMI testing (the big company) lab EMI testing (FCC, UL, etc), leaving perhaps a XXX or XXXX out of 1,000,0000 who are getting genuine EMI-related computer performance impacts;
My impression is this is a much bigger problem now than 10 years ago because of the ECC-ization of a modern computer; as described. The S/N margins are getting tighter and tighter.
Whereas it used to be easy to boilerplate-parrot on network lag, unfortunately, as EMI-related factors (and peripherally EMI related) starts to break above 0.1% -> 0.5% -> 1% -> 1.5% ... that now is 1500 people out of 1M people. Being Blur Busters being the bleeding edge temporal business (fps, Hz, lag, MPRT, GtG, etc), it's increasingly looking a canary in a coal mine as we've milked the Moore's Law Cow dry and hitting hard into Shannon-Hartley Theorem.
This is part of why I now recommend mouse sensor-side timestamping in my High Definition Mouse Extensions API Proposal, to help preserve temporal precision through a jittery/noisy system (including pipelines jittered by EMI too). To help better punch the Vicious Cycle Effect frontier further forward.
My education is also agreeing with me in how all of these dots connect each other;
Chief Blur Buster wrote:MaxTendency wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 08:41Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑21 Dec 2020, 14:33It's kind of like the EMI stuff that (even NVIDIA acknowledges)I'm also interested in this. I don't remember nvidia mentioning this in their input lag related articles atleast.
<PandoraBox state="OPEN">It's not the only one, research is a needle in a haystack when they aren't always acknowledged to end users.timecard wrote: ↑26 Dec 2020, 23:23I assume it's this, read this a while back. Lots of diagrams regarding current flow, coupling and emi. Enjoy.
Thesis: EMI analysis of DVI link connectors, Abhishek Patnaik, 2015
Also associated with Dr. YaoJiang Zhang at Missouri University of Science and Technology and Chen Wang and Chuck Jackson at NVIDIA, Inc.
https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewco ... ers_theses
But many EMI papers exist that NVIDIA co-authored. Here are a cherrypick of a few. It takes time to dig up good examples but they're there if you know where to look ("NVIDIA + EMI" or "NVIDIA" + "electromagnetic interference" and various other Google-Fu in academic search engines and patent search engines). Or just broaden your net and slap in a common name such as Samsung or RCA (of yesteryear big-company fame, EMI was a big problem even back in the 1940s and 1950s -- like analog ghosts on a TV and interference on radio). Anyway, it is almost High School 101 stuff to advanced NVIDIA engineers -- the engineers know EMI is a huge problem these days. These have been issues for a long time (many of these papers are from 2010)
Research Paper Example 1: Virtual-EMI lab: Removing mysteries from black-magic to a successful front-end designResearch Paper Example 2: Implementation of a Virtual EMI Lab to Cost-Effectively Tackle Multi-Gigahertz EMI ChallengesEMI engineers are struggling everyday with complex radiation problems that fail critical products to pass EMI certification and causes big loss of profit. Advances in EMI engineering are following a similar trend like Signal-Integrity engineering 10-years ago when simulation tools became capable of providing accurate predictive simulations in a reasonable amount of time. With careful engineering utilizing cutting-edge full-wave field-solver software: Momentum (MOM), EMpro (FDTD) along with a hardware boost with heterogeneous massive CPU/GPU parallel processing (CUDA) technology, we can move the EMI teams from the back-end black-magic to a successful cost-effective front-end design. This paper presents an innovative process (Virtual-EMI lab) for pre- and post-tape-out providing the designers with an early stage EMI-suppression matrix (on-chip and onboard enablers) to find the optimum trade-off between performance and cost.
Hany Fahmy (NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, CA, USA)
Chen Wang (NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, CA, USA)
Davy Pissoort (Department IW&T, FMEC-KHBO, Oostende, Belgium)
Amolak Badesha (Agilent Technologies, Inc., Santa Clara, CA, USA)Example #3: Patent by NVIDIA cites a HP EMI PatentDue to the increasing overall complexity and integration, electronic engineers are faced every day with ever more complicated ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI) issues. As a result many first prototypes fail to pass all EMI certification tests causing a big loss of time and profit. Up to now, debugging EMI issues has mostly been done in costly EMI chambers. Moreover these tests are done rather late in the design cycle when there is not much flexibility left to implement the optimal and most cost-efficient EMI mitigation methods. Simulations offer a lot a flexibility when estimating the EMI impact of different elements in the electronic system and can really help to find the real sources for possible EMI issues. By having this knowledge very early in the design stage, one can implement cheap, yet effective EMI mitigation methods without resorting to more costly EMI suppressors like shielded connectors, chokes, or specially-designed enclosures. Unfortunately, due to the complexity, most of EMI problems require excessive computer resources both in terms of simulation time as computer memory. However, thanks to recent advances in the adoption of GPU parallel processing technology to modern EM simulation tools, it becomes feasible to accurately solve complex EMI problems within a reasonable amount of time. This paper gives an overview of some efficient methodologies that are currently used by within NVIDIA for cost-effective EMI suppression techniques by means of a virtual EMI lab and this both early in the design process or after physically testing a first prototype . The challenges that were successfully tackled include (i) the optimal routing of on a multi-layered Printed Circuit Board (PCB), (ii) the use of on-board shielding, (iii) the influence of grounding to a connector-to-PCB transition, (iv) simultaneous switching output (SSO) noise emission reduction, and (v) estimating the influence of the exact location of an ESD diode.
Patent US8169789B1 by NVIDIA cites HP patent US6219239B1 (Scroll down "Cited By" where 108 are listed, including NVIDIA).EMI reduction device and assembly
Abstract: An EMI reduction device is coupled between a printed circuit board (PCB) assembly and a heat sink. The PCB assembly includes a processor core that is the source of unintentional electromagnetic interference (EMI). The EMI reduction device is attached to a heat sink which is positioned over the processor core such that it capacitively couples emissions from the processor core to a grounding plane resident in the PCB assembly, thereby reducing the unintentional EMI. Simultaneously, the EMI reduction device is able to maintain thermal contact with the heat sink.
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Example 1,000+ (skipped)
(...Jaded about EMI which I first knew about in late 1980s. This is only a <1% textdump. These are just small examples from 15 minutes of Chief Blur Busters Google-Fu. Most of the mainstream don't realize just how major EMI-solving is part of those highly paid jobs within multiple job positions within NVIDIA, but they alas cannot test for the infinite untestable EMI combinations, many businesses try their best, but can be harder to have complete-coverage-debugging than bugs in an entire operating system -- since EMI is such a massive universe of infinite different kinds of EMIs.)
1. All big companies such as NVIDIA does a lot of work with EMI but you have to look for them in other channels (research, patents, etc)MaxTendency wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 08:41I'm also interested in this. I don't remember nvidia mentioning this in their input lag related articles atleast.
2. In articles to end users, they don't really link EMI to input lag. We just assume EMI is not a factor (like for most situations). But EMI leads to random pauses which is random lag.
NVIDIA acknowledges it internally and it's all over those research/patents. It's how important it is.
NVIDIA does not generally directly call it out to end users. But it is indirectly alluded to already indirectly to users -- as overclocking also increases EMI sensitivity and creates various error-correction latencies, in this earlier post.
A major reason of adding error correction to electronics is EMI-resistance amongst so many other reasons -- error correction is now part of PCI-X buses, NVMe buses, SATA buses, memory buses, GDDR6, USB buses, DisplayPort connections, etc.
Error correction is also invented partially to resist crashing on EMI events -- whether non-overclock related or overclock related.
Punching those bits above above Shannon Theorem. On some of those mediums nowadays, data bits are now often far below noise floor, and advanced algorithms brings them back above noise floor -- this is made possible by advanced modulation/demodulation techniques, which is how USB sped up, Ethernet sped up, PCIe sped up, etc -- the ability to transmit binary data far below the noise floor -- sometimes so vanishingly close to the theoretical limits Shannon-Hartley Theorem, that any tiny amount of EMI just nullifies the signal. More data, more EMI sensitive. Ouch.
Winning the EMI battle while being as tight as possible to Shannon-Hartley margins, is a polar-opposites goal -- there are many situations where you can have one (faster) or the other (more resistant). Do you know why the NASA Mars Rovers use heavily underclocked radiation-hardened chips such as IBM RAD 6000 CPU processor -- at speeds of around the territory of 20 megahertz (0.02 gigahertz)? Bingo! EMI (but of cosmic radiation form) in outer space is harsher than on planet Earth. See, the battle?
Anyway, needless to say, EMI-resistant engineering is a major part of a lot of electronics/chip/circuitboard/powersupply/system/etc design. But there are an infinite number of EMI needles (that punch through the anti-EMI stuff) found in all locations of all the population of nearly 8 billion -- more than the number of lines of code in Linux or Windows -- and it is hard to eliminate all possible EMI problems. They can only debug so much.
Anyway, those who haven't studied electronics engineering, can read Post #1, Post #2, and Post #3 to educate themselves about EMI as well as EMI-derived latency issues.
Also, just because (cherrypicking simplified number) ...., say 99% or 99.9% people don't have major EMI-related lag/glitches can mean 10,000 (1%) out of 1,000,000 has some kind of relatively significant EMI glitch with their computer because they're living next to high voltage transmission lines or live in a very EMI-noisy old apartment building with a malfunctioning fridge compressor in the next tenant's wall right behind the computer, or whatever. Lots of near-EMP-league EMI edge cases that punch through a lot of anti-EMI stuff. EMI is an infinitely vast universe with a spectrum wider than audio spectrum and visible light spectrum, of all kinds of signal noises (broadband, narrowband, pure noises at below-light frequencies, or random noise at above-light frequencies, over-the-air, over-the-wire, or trillions/quadrillions/quintillons/infinite other patterns more numerous than the number of atoms in this universe, etc). It's a lot of FUD of wild goose chase for red herrings, very hard to debug stuff for end users. There is little hope for a full EMI debug though one can always do their best, and increase EMI-resistance success %, but not for the entire locations of the entire population...
Now, if any of you are old enough to remember analog TV or radio -- you had interference. Ghosts. Etc. Whether over the air or over the wire (bad cable). Indirectly, interference was one of the reasons Communications Act of 1934 that created Federal Communications Commission, and old problems happen over the years, such as the Freeze of 1948 caused by radio interference (a classic form of EMI, as radio waves are an electromagnetic spectrum).
Fast Forward >> To Today:
Electronics circuits running very tight to Shannon-Hartley Theorem (weakest possible signal at highest possible bit rates) are nowadays like the equivalent of a very weak HDTV broadcast signal almost ready to black out. There's often no room to increase power more, and there's often no room to transmit faster. Now it becomes sensitive to the weakest EMI. Those dropouts you see on OTA HDTV broadcasts from rabbit ear antennas connected to a flat panel? When that digital signal dropout happens inside a computer (e.g. inside a USB cable, or inside PCIe lane, or inside an interrupt-signal circuit line), those are microfreezes, whether it's a nanosecond, a microsecond, or a millisecond. Those latency pauses on a computer caused by EMI.
Yesterday's computer crashed with EMI spikes (old IDE bus, old memory, old ISA bus, old serial bus)...
...But thanks to error correcting layers throughout a modern PC, a computer simply microfreezes now with most ordinary EMI (error correcting SATA/NVMe bus, error correcting GDDR6, error correcting USB, error correcting PCIe).
Even if the pause is a nanoseconds, there can be millions of microfreezes throughout a whole system -- and still get "death by a billion nanoseconds", much like losing 50% of a packets on an Internet connection. But at bus speed scales -- (whereas a modern PCIe bus is literally packetized nowadays, at millions of packets per second, with ever-increasing layers of error correction). It's a complex quagmire.
The net result is we just merrily compute along -- not caring about whatever that little stutter or lagspike was -- at least the computer did not crash. Perhaps, who knows -- 99% of the time it was software but might be 1% of time EMI related. Or 0.1% or 10% -- who knows? Very hard to troubleshoot. That said, we thank our merry stars that a computer doesn't crash. We focus on lower-lying apples like troubleshooting software first, and most of the issues is Windows or software, even if EMI is one of the many problems that needs to be battled against.
Telemetry/Statistics:
....This post opens the the Pandora Box by: Less Than 0.0125%
....Type of this forum post: Basic ELI5 League
....Experience Modifier to understand Pandora Box by 1-to-10%: Ph.D Degree (and I'm not even at that level)
For most end users, I recommend not to bother troubleshooting for EMI; it is often a waste of time and resources even if it is a major problem. Most of the time one needs to just focus on troubleshooting the troubleshootable as that is much easier, because playing rabbitears roulette with a computer innards is horrendously hard and hard to trace.
Hope this is an educational read!
Cheers,
</PandoraBox>
ERROR 1001 at Line 1: Failed to to close the <PandoraBox> tag
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