[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Separate area for niche lag issues including unexpected causes and/or electromagnetic interference (ECC = retransmits = lag). Interference (EMI, EMF) of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction latencies like a bad modem connection. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI. Please read this before entering sub-forum.
Forum rules
IMPORTANT:
This subforum is for advanced users only. This separate area is for niche or unexpected lag issues such as electromagnetic interference (EMI, EMF, electrical, radiofrequency, etc). Interference of all kinds (wired, wireless, external, internal, environment, bad component) can cause error-correction (ECC) latencies like a bad modem connection, except internally in a circuit. ECC = retransmits = lag. Troubleshooting may require university degree. Your lag issue is likely not EMI.
🠚 You Must Read This First Before Submit Post or Submit Reply
Locked
RRomeo
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Apr 2021, 16:31

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by RRomeo » 10 Apr 2021, 16:38

people why you don't try inverter generator
1k watt very small not very expensive to rent one for few days to try it
be sure its inverter because regular generator have very bad power can damage sensitive equipment
if this doesn't help mean its not the electricity its something from the air or from underground like radiation

f1ndus
Posts: 165
Joined: 30 Dec 2020, 10:38

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by f1ndus » 11 Apr 2021, 04:17

RRomeo wrote:
10 Apr 2021, 16:38
people why you don't try inverter generator
1k watt very small not very expensive to rent one for few days to try it
be sure its inverter because regular generator have very bad power can damage sensitive equipment
if this doesn't help mean its not the electricity its something from the air or from underground like radiation
yeah i know many people who tried every combination like onlin ups, some types invertors, many EMI/RFI filters, voltage regulator and many many things but nothing helped..

https://prnt.sc/119idr7 - this is tower with high voltage, 10-15 meters from my house, for a long time I hope this is not a source of my problem, becouse its unfixable i think

also symptoms like everyone, problem with floaty mouse, stutter, choppy gameplay and movement like tank in games.

RRomeo
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Apr 2021, 16:31

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by RRomeo » 11 Apr 2021, 05:46

last test is to use off grid power and be sure to cut the power off from all the house be sure every room have no grid power. no power entering your house then use the off grid power like a inverter Generator or Battery only for the Pc and the Monitor if doesn't fix the problem then must be a radiation from that tower or from martials underground your house
after that you have to test the radiation from that tower if it has very high radiation then its not hard to fix it you need to shield your walls in the room where is the Pc at the shielding well cost you but will be worth it only if you are 100% the source of the problem is that tower bc if its not then maybe something underground so maybe you have to shield the floor too

pox02
Posts: 260
Joined: 28 Sep 2018, 06:04

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by pox02 » 15 Apr 2021, 04:37

replaced ax1600i to hx1200i huge difference

ax1600i


https://streamable.com/hijvkt

hx1200i

https://streamable.com/skoc1u
monitors xg258q aw2518hf 27GK750F-B pg248q xg240r lg w2363d-pf xb270hu XL2546 XL2546K NXG252R

f1ndus
Posts: 165
Joined: 30 Dec 2020, 10:38

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by f1ndus » 15 Apr 2021, 05:28

pox02 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 04:37
replaced ax1600i to hx1200i huge difference

ax1600i


https://streamable.com/hijvkt

hx1200i

https://streamable.com/skoc1u
thats awesome! but i think the most important part is for monitor, i think that desync its main causing monitors

Blonekql
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Apr 2021, 02:16

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Blonekql » 19 Apr 2021, 02:23

Hello, can someone give me discord for this isue? Me2 are EMI positive(i think its emi), start 2015, leave gaming.... long story and very similar sympoms.

// (PL) jakis Polak jest oprócz mnie tutaj z tym objawem?

yonaxsangi
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Mar 2021, 06:06

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by yonaxsangi » 19 Apr 2021, 05:58

Blonekql wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 02:23
Hello, can someone give me discord for this isue? Me2 are EMI positive(i think its emi), start 2015, leave gaming.... long story and very similar sympoms.

// (PL) jakis Polak jest oprócz mnie tutaj z tym objawem?
if its only EMI problem related u can enable spread spectrum or edit in your bios,
i have dont this and its day and night difference

losxer
Posts: 57
Joined: 19 Apr 2021, 21:03

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by losxer » 19 Apr 2021, 23:04

Sorry for my english Is not my lenguage and i dont use Google translate..
I totaly agree, EMI problem Is a joke, Is network. 101% Is network. I see the real prof with my yes but unfortunaly no One Will trust me, i was a top 100 on Rocket league for several seasion and After switch to fiber 1gb i become trash, for FPS game Is hit target problem but for my game Is even wrost i can easly see the difference ( for exemple before in not able to play with 0.10 sens and now if i put 0.00 Is more slow then 0.20)or i become 90years old man. Why i got proof? Simple, because After 3 month trying evrything, i format PC 10 times i Guess , change motherboard, SSD , joypad ( Rocket on PC but with pad) but i cant think the problem was the fiber that make no sense to me.. but i want try all so i go back to vdsl and at same time on my home i got vdsl and fiber 1gb, so.. another world, with vdsl i comeback to top 100 in few data so easly win 70% of match, my car comeback smoother and my game graphic much Better ( idk why but graphic look soooo much Better look like real 240fps and not avrage 100 like with fiber sometime my eyes hurts .. and game feel like framdrops) but After 1week isp call me and they told me they Need ti change something, After this call my line become the same of fiber, damn guys i hard top trust i know but i try both for 3 day for 3-4 times a day ( play 1 match vdsl then switch ) and the difference was insane im not able to win at my rank( higher ) with fiber, no Way i can, then switch vdsl and win easly , explane is placebo? No Way, sens change Is the most Easy thing to Say my self im not crazy, and maybie im the most lucky guy.. because i know Is network because i really see with my eyes.
About offline mode i try too before off course and the input Lag was in offline too, After switching to vdsl and go back to offline input Lag go away (put fiber and go offline input comeback until u put good network), idk why and how its work but i see with my eyes, and i Say thanks God because if i dont see It with my eyes i Will think im just bad and i Need improve more but i know Is not the problem, so i Just delete the game i loved for years, because Is not funny to me if i cant do the skill or stay at my own rank.. i Aldo know that not so much people can know this problem like me and Mello because i think 80% of people have It but dont care about because they never feel the game like we did.
Last edited by losxer on 07 May 2021, 16:39, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 19 Apr 2021, 23:57

losxer wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 23:04
Sorry for my english Is not my lenguage and i dont use Google translate..
I totaly agree, EMI problem Is a joke, Is network. 101% Is network. I see the real prof with my yes but unfortunaly no One Will trust me, i was a top 100 on Rocket league for several seasion and After switch to fiber 1gb i become trash, for FPS game Is hit target problem but for my game Is even wrost i can easly see the difference ( for exemple before in not able to play with 0.10 sens and now if i put 0.00 Is more slow then 0.20)or i become 90years old man. Why i got proof? Simple, because After 3 month trying evrything, i format PC 10 times i Guess , change motherboard, SSD , joypad ( Rocket on PC but with pad) but i cant think the problem was the fiber that make no sense to me.. but i want try all so i go back to vdsl and at same time on my home i got vdsl and fiber 1gb, so.. another world, with vdsl i comeback to top 100 in few data so easly win 70% of match, my car comeback smoother and my game graphic much Better ( idk why but graphic look soooo much Better look like real 240fps and not avrage 100 like with fiber sometime my eyes hurts .. and game feel like framdrops) but After 1week isp call me and they told me they Need ti change something, After this call my line become the same of fiber, damn guys i hard top trust i know but i try both for 3 day for 3-4 times a day ( play 1 match vdsl then switch ) and the difference was insane im not able to win at my rank( higher ) with fiber, no Way i can, then switch vdsl and win easly , explane is placebo? No Way, sens change Is the most Easy thing to Say my self im not crazy, and maybie im the most lucky guy.. because i know Is network because i really see with my eyes.
About offline mode i try too before off course and the input Lag was in offline too, After switching to vdsl and go back to offline input Lag go away (put fiber and go offline input comeback until u put good network), idk why and how its work but i see with my eyes, and i Say thanks God because if i dont see It with my eyes i Will think im just bad and i Need improve more but i know Is not the problem, so i Just delete the game i loved for years, because Is not funny to me if i cant do the skill or stay at my own rank.. i Aldo know that not so much people can know this problem like me and Mello because i think 80% of people have It but dont care about because they never feel the game like we did.
Most problems are Internet based, yes, and not EMI based. Correct.

Yes, the original poster may very well not be an EMI issue (could go either way).

But you're wrong that it's never EMI. There are actual people on Earth who have EMI problems (lag in offline play without Internet that is only fixed by removing interference).

Just because Internet lag exists doesn't mean EMI issues does not exist. Sure, Internet latency may be 100 times more common than EMI problems, but EMI problems definitely exist too. Even if you weren't affected by EMI.

EMI problems are so frequently misdiagnosed. EMI is already a proven science but troubleshooting EMI is very hard for end users.

Please cease & terminate such blanket "EMI does not exist" statements on Blur Busters Forums. It is as false as flat earth. Both Internet lag exists and EMI issues exists, even if Internet lag is more common. Even if many mis-diagnose Internet lag as EMI and vice versa. I recommend you read my stance on EMI issues, including links to research papers.

Blur Busters espouses a philosophy of being open to "rare" but genuinely existing problems. Much like how many people did not believe in 240 Hz ten years ago (and still don't).

Even if EMI only affects less than 0.1% of people it is still very real.

Please avoid blanket "EMI does not exist" statements that are as disproven as flat earth.

As a temporal business (GtG, MPRT, Hz, blur, ghosting, lag, stutter, VRR, anything temporal) we are big-time defenders of outlier concepts that have later become proven true, such as Amazing Human Visible Milliseconds, and such, overturning lesser-studied research because they neglected to consider certain variables (such as how resolution interacts with Hz and vice versa).

I am cited in more than 20 different peer reviewed research papers because of Blur Buster's aggressive defense of these outlier concepts -- where we consistently proved correct. And researchers finally agreed with us. We are very serious about keeping discourse open.

Even if 99%+ of problems are Internet, and 1% is EMI (lag from error correction behaviors). Lag even in offline play (no Internet) that is only fixed by removing EMI.

Thank you.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11647
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: [Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Apr 2021, 00:02

Crossposting for "EMI Deniers"

<PandoraBox state="OPEN">
timecard wrote:
26 Dec 2020, 23:23
I assume it's this, read this a while back. Lots of diagrams regarding current flow, coupling and emi. Enjoy.

Thesis: EMI analysis of DVI link connectors, Abhishek Patnaik, 2015
Also associated with Dr. YaoJiang Zhang at Missouri University of Science and Technology and Chen Wang and Chuck Jackson at NVIDIA, Inc.
https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewco ... ers_theses
It's not the only one, research is a needle in a haystack when they aren't always acknowledged to end users.

But many EMI papers exist that NVIDIA co-authored. Here are a cherrypick of a few. It takes time to dig up good examples but they're there if you know where to look ("NVIDIA + EMI" or "NVIDIA" + "electromagnetic interference" and various other Google-Fu in academic search engines and patent search engines). Or just broaden your net and slap in a common name such as Samsung or RCA (of yesteryear big-company fame, EMI was a big problem even back in the 1940s and 1950s -- like analog ghosts on a TV and interference on radio). Anyway, it is almost High School 101 stuff to advanced NVIDIA engineers -- the engineers know EMI is a huge problem these days. These have been issues for a long time (many of these papers are from 2010)

Research Paper Example 1: Virtual-EMI lab: Removing mysteries from black-magic to a successful front-end design
EMI engineers are struggling everyday with complex radiation problems that fail critical products to pass EMI certification and causes big loss of profit. Advances in EMI engineering are following a similar trend like Signal-Integrity engineering 10-years ago when simulation tools became capable of providing accurate predictive simulations in a reasonable amount of time. With careful engineering utilizing cutting-edge full-wave field-solver software: Momentum (MOM), EMpro (FDTD) along with a hardware boost with heterogeneous massive CPU/GPU parallel processing (CUDA) technology, we can move the EMI teams from the back-end black-magic to a successful cost-effective front-end design. This paper presents an innovative process (Virtual-EMI lab) for pre- and post-tape-out providing the designers with an early stage EMI-suppression matrix (on-chip and onboard enablers) to find the optimum trade-off between performance and cost.

Hany Fahmy (NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, CA, USA)
Chen Wang (NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, CA, USA)
Davy Pissoort (Department IW&T, FMEC-KHBO, Oostende, Belgium)
Amolak Badesha (Agilent Technologies, Inc., Santa Clara, CA, USA)
Research Paper Example 2: Implementation of a Virtual EMI Lab to Cost-Effectively Tackle Multi-Gigahertz EMI Challenges
Due to the increasing overall complexity and integration, electronic engineers are faced every day with ever more complicated ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI) issues. As a result many first prototypes fail to pass all EMI certification tests causing a big loss of time and profit. Up to now, debugging EMI issues has mostly been done in costly EMI chambers. Moreover these tests are done rather late in the design cycle when there is not much flexibility left to implement the optimal and most cost-efficient EMI mitigation methods. Simulations offer a lot a flexibility when estimating the EMI impact of different elements in the electronic system and can really help to find the real sources for possible EMI issues. By having this knowledge very early in the design stage, one can implement cheap, yet effective EMI mitigation methods without resorting to more costly EMI suppressors like shielded connectors, chokes, or specially-designed enclosures. Unfortunately, due to the complexity, most of EMI problems require excessive computer resources both in terms of simulation time as computer memory. However, thanks to recent advances in the adoption of GPU parallel processing technology to modern EM simulation tools, it becomes feasible to accurately solve complex EMI problems within a reasonable amount of time. This paper gives an overview of some efficient methodologies that are currently used by within NVIDIA for cost-effective EMI suppression techniques by means of a virtual EMI lab and this both early in the design process or after physically testing a first prototype . The challenges that were successfully tackled include (i) the optimal routing of on a multi-layered Printed Circuit Board (PCB), (ii) the use of on-board shielding, (iii) the influence of grounding to a connector-to-PCB transition, (iv) simultaneous switching output (SSO) noise emission reduction, and (v) estimating the influence of the exact location of an ESD diode.
Example #3: Patent by NVIDIA cites a HP EMI Patent
Patent US8169789B1 by NVIDIA cites HP patent US6219239B1 (Scroll down "Cited By" where 108 are listed, including NVIDIA)
EMI reduction device and assembly
Abstract: An EMI reduction device is coupled between a printed circuit board (PCB) assembly and a heat sink. The PCB assembly includes a processor core that is the source of unintentional electromagnetic interference (EMI). The EMI reduction device is attached to a heat sink which is positioned over the processor core such that it capacitively couples emissions from the processor core to a grounding plane resident in the PCB assembly, thereby reducing the unintentional EMI. Simultaneously, the EMI reduction device is able to maintain thermal contact with the heat sink.
.
.
.
.
Example 1,000+ (skipped)

(...Jaded about EMI which I first knew about in late 1980s. This is only a <1% textdump. These are just small examples from 15 minutes of Chief Blur Busters Google-Fu. Most of the mainstream don't realize just how major EMI-solving is part of those highly paid jobs within multiple job positions within NVIDIA, but they alas cannot test for the infinite untestable EMI combinations, many businesses try their best, but can be harder to have complete-coverage-debugging than bugs in an entire operating system -- since EMI is such a massive universe of infinite different kinds of EMIs.)
Brainlet wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 16:45
Got a link to that? (NVIDIA claiming it can be an issue)
MaxTendency wrote:
25 Dec 2020, 08:41
I'm also interested in this. I don't remember nvidia mentioning this in their input lag related articles atleast.
1. All big companies such as NVIDIA does a lot of work with EMI but you have to look for them in other channels (research, patents, etc)
2. In articles to end users, they don't really link EMI to input lag. We just assume EMI is not a factor (like for most situations). But EMI leads to random pauses which is random lag.

NVIDIA acknowledges it internally and it's all over those research/patents. It's how important it is.

NVIDIA does not generally directly call it out to end users. But it is indirectly alluded to already indirectly to users -- as overclocking also increases EMI sensitivity and creates various error-correction latencies, in this earlier post.

Image
A major reason of adding error correction to electronics is EMI-resistance amongst so many other reasons -- error correction is now part of PCI-X buses, NVMe buses, SATA buses, memory buses, GDDR6, USB buses, DisplayPort connections, etc.

Error correction is also invented partially to resist crashing on EMI events -- whether non-overclock related or overclock related.

Punching those bits above above Shannon Theorem. On some of those mediums nowadays, data bits are now often far below noise floor, and advanced algorithms brings them back above noise floor -- this is made possible by advanced modulation/demodulation techniques, which is how USB sped up, Ethernet sped up, PCIe sped up, etc -- the ability to transmit binary data far below the noise floor -- sometimes so vanishingly close to the theoretical limits Shannon-Hartley Theorem, that any tiny amount of EMI just nullifies the signal. More data, more EMI sensitive. Ouch.

Winning the EMI battle while being as tight as possible to Shannon-Hartley margins, is a polar-opposites goal -- there are many situations where you can have one (faster) or the other (more resistant). Do you know why the NASA Mars Rovers use heavily underclocked radiation-hardened chips such as IBM RAD 6000 CPU processor -- at speeds of around the territory of 20 megahertz (0.02 gigahertz)? Bingo! EMI (but of cosmic radiation form) in outer space is harsher than on planet Earth. See, the battle?

Anyway, needless to say, EMI-resistant engineering is a major part of a lot of electronics/chip/circuitboard/powersupply/system/etc design. But there are an infinite number of EMI needles (that punch through the anti-EMI stuff) found in all locations of all the population of nearly 8 billion -- more than the number of lines of code in Linux or Windows -- and it is hard to eliminate all possible EMI problems. They can only debug so much.

Anyway, those who haven't studied electronics engineering, can read Post #1, Post #2, and Post #3 to educate themselves about EMI as well as EMI-derived latency issues.

Also, just because (cherrypicking simplified number) ...., say 99% or 99.9% people don't have major EMI-related lag/glitches can mean 10,000 (1%) out of 1,000,000 has some kind of relatively significant EMI glitch with their computer because they're living next to high voltage transmission lines or live in a very EMI-noisy old apartment building with a malfunctioning fridge compressor in the next tenant's wall right behind the computer, or whatever. Lots of near-EMP-league EMI edge cases that punch through a lot of anti-EMI stuff. EMI is an infinitely vast universe with a spectrum wider than audio spectrum and visible light spectrum, of all kinds of signal noises (broadband, narrowband, pure noises at below-light frequencies, or random noise at above-light frequencies, over-the-air, over-the-wire, or trillions/quadrillions/quintillons/infinite other patterns more numerous than the number of atoms in this universe, etc). It's a lot of FUD of wild goose chase for red herrings, very hard to debug stuff for end users. There is little hope for a full EMI debug though one can always do their best, and increase EMI-resistance success %, but not for the entire locations of the entire population...

Now, if any of you are old enough to remember analog TV or radio -- you had interference. Ghosts. Etc. Whether over the air or over the wire (bad cable). Indirectly, interference was one of the reasons Communications Act of 1934 that created Federal Communications Commission, and old problems happen over the years, such as the Freeze of 1948 caused by radio interference (a classic form of EMI, as radio waves are an electromagnetic spectrum).

Fast Forward >> To Today:

Electronics circuits running very tight to Shannon-Hartley Theorem (weakest possible signal at highest possible bit rates) are nowadays like the equivalent of a very weak HDTV broadcast signal almost ready to black out. There's often no room to increase power more, and there's often no room to transmit faster. Now it becomes sensitive to the weakest EMI. Those dropouts you see on OTA HDTV broadcasts from rabbit ear antennas connected to a flat panel? When that digital signal dropout happens inside a computer (e.g. inside a USB cable, or inside PCIe lane, or inside an interrupt-signal circuit line), those are microfreezes, whether it's a nanosecond, a microsecond, or a millisecond. Those latency pauses on a computer caused by EMI.

Yesterday's computer crashed with EMI spikes (old IDE bus, old memory, old ISA bus, old serial bus)...
...But thanks to error correcting layers throughout a modern PC, a computer simply microfreezes now with most ordinary EMI (error correcting SATA/NVMe bus, error correcting GDDR6, error correcting USB, error correcting PCIe).

Even if the pause is a nanoseconds, there can be millions of microfreezes throughout a whole system -- and still get "death by a billion nanoseconds", much like losing 50% of a packets on an Internet connection. But at bus speed scales -- (whereas a modern PCIe bus is literally packetized nowadays, at millions of packets per second, with ever-increasing layers of error correction). It's a complex quagmire.

The net result is we just merrily compute along -- not caring about whatever that little stutter or lagspike was -- at least the computer did not crash. Perhaps, who knows -- 99% of the time it was software but might be 1% of time EMI related. Or 0.1% or 10% -- who knows? Very hard to troubleshoot. That said, we thank our merry stars that a computer doesn't crash. We focus on lower-lying apples like troubleshooting software first, and most of the issues is Windows or software, even if EMI is one of the many problems that needs to be battled against.

Telemetry/Statistics:
....This post opens the the Pandora Box by: Less Than 0.0125%
....Type of this forum post: Basic ELI5 League
....Experience Modifier to understand Pandora Box by 1-to-10%: Ph.D Degree (and I'm not even at that level)

For most end users, I recommend not to bother troubleshooting for EMI; it is often a waste of time and resources even if it is a major problem. Most of the time one needs to just focus on troubleshooting the troubleshootable as that is much easier, because playing rabbitears roulette with a computer innards is horrendously hard and hard to trace.

Hope this is an educational read!

Cheers,

</PandoraBox>
ERROR 1001 at Line 1: Failed to to close the <PandoraBox> tag
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

Locked