Placebo or a possibility? USB ports and mouse feel.

[donktuman]

Many people cannot correctly describe the phenomenon they encounter. In fact, this is a USB port input delay problem. This problem has existed for many years. Unless companies like Microsoft and Intel AMD take this problem seriously, there is currently no solution...

It's been solved for years as well, people just like to repeat lies.
This entire forum subsection just likes to chase unicorns & some other mythical, fictive beasts.
The problem is solved by having (no particular order):
- Being close to server (networking) + investing in proper line,
- Good electricity,
- Stable & fast hardware (low ripple PSU's such as AX1600i or anything Corsair , Good cooling - AIO or custom loop, ≥10 layer PCB MOBO, 8 core CPU - 3d cache if AMD, latest Intel, GPU - Ada/Blackwell or RDNA2, RAM (≥32GB DDR5 A-Die or M-die), SSD (990 Pro / Intel Optane) => NOTE: IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO "OVERCLOCK", DON'T. DON'T FOLLOW YOUTUBE "TUTORIALS")
- Good software (tuned Windows & disabling junk BG processes that use CPU cycles or use I/O resources),
- Good drivers (GPU, NIC, USB) & proper CPU affinities for them,
- Good frametimes (mess with a lower Timer Resolution & in-game caps or mess with RTSS cap),
- Proper peripherals (8KHz mouse by Razer, low profile & hall effect / optical keyboard , properly compliant ≥240hz monitor such as X25, XL2566K strobed, PG248QP or derivatives in 1080p range, PG27AQN, 27G1S or OLED in 1440p/4k spectrum).
That's the entire formula. There's nothing fancy about it.
I wish I could pin this, so people can stop being obnoxious with the ridiculous thread names and "no solution..." conclusions.

If you are using anything else other than this recipe, don't go wondering how your cake tastes sour or bitter.
No amount of tweaking can fix bad hardware & physics.

All these were tried and it never fixed the issue. you must not have it like the others.

[kyube]

All these were tried and it never fixed the issue. you must not have it like the others.

Please, stop chasing unicorns.
Just admit that you've made a bad purchasing decision and you lack the knowledge to setup software correctly.
Stop coping with random tweaks that most people on the forums here don't know what they do.
I've laid out the entire formula people need to follow and there are many github guides which go much further in-depth about this.
The solution is out there, people just lack reading comprehension and want to be spoonfed, that's the problem.

That's interesting because a lot of tweaking almost fixed my problems despite having bad electricity and internet while also being on a mid-high end pc from 2020. I think Windows is more of a culprit. Had problems with my pc from 2016, fixed it by going on an older tweaked Windows version, same solution worked now. However the things you write are great, despite the only solution being about buying the most expensive pc possible.

No amount of tweaking will solve bad hardware purchasing decisions
Anything above Ivy (DoA due to IPC, also avoid imo) and below 11th gen Intel or below Zen3 on AMD side is bad and should be avoided by all cost (Spectre/Meltdown, low core count, instabilities, dual CCD on AMD side etc.)
It's how hardware is, you either buy the best or you're gonna have issues.
Also, do you have a $10k oscilloscope with $10k probes to say your electricity is bad? Until then, your anecdotes have little objective measure.
There's no denying that after Windows 7, the bloat increased. That's why I've mentioned it as a step.
To further elaborate on the "Good Software" part, for having good game compatibility:
It's either between Server 2022 or W11 23H2 (or newer) due to them having working Timer Resolution, which is used for capping FPS in most games.
Most of the issues people on these forums have been solved already, if anyone bothered reading guides such as Calypto's, DJDallman's Bored's, Amit's ones.
Amit especially had a section in regards to which Windows version to choose.

[Vocaleyes]

All these were tried and it never fixed the issue. you must not have it like the others.

Please, stop chasing unicorns.
Just admit that you've made a bad purchasing decision and you lack the knowledge to setup software correctly.
Stop coping with random tweaks that most people on the forums here don't know what they do.
I've laid out the entire formula people need to follow and there are many github guides which go much further in-depth about this.
The solution is out there, people just lack reading comprehension and want to be spoonfed, that's the problem.

That's interesting because a lot of tweaking almost fixed my problems despite having bad electricity and internet while also being on a mid-high end pc from 2020. I think Windows is more of a culprit. Had problems with my pc from 2016, fixed it by going on an older tweaked Windows version, same solution worked now. However the things you write are great, despite the only solution being about buying the most expensive pc possible.

No amount of tweaking will solve bad hardware purchasing decisions
Anything below above Ivy (DoA due to IPC, also avoid imo) and below 11th gen Intel or below Zen3 on AMD side is bad and should be avoided by all cost (Spectre/Meltdown, low core count, instabilities etc., dual CCD on AMD side etc.)
It's how hardware is, you either buy the best or you're gonna have issues.
Also, do you have a $10k oscilloscope with $10k probes to say your electricity is bad? Until then, your anecdotes have little objective measure.
There's no denying that after Windows 7, the bloat increased. That's why I've mentioned it as a step.
To further elaborate on the "Good Software" part, for having good game compatibility:
It's either between Server 2022 or W11 23H2 (or newer) due to them having working Timer Resolution, which is used for capping FPS in most games.
Most of the issues people on these forums have been solved already, if anyone bothered reading guides such as Calypto's, DJDallman's Bored's, Amit's ones.
Amit especially had a section in regards to which Windows version to choose.

Being more articulate than others doesn’t make you correct.

Attempting to gaslight and then spout of a bunch of general comments claiming “it’s fixed” is already an incorrect statement in itself. Not everyone here is experiencing the same issue, whilst yes the points you brought to the table are relevant in certain situations and may be helpful to some, this input issue simply hasn’t been resolved as you claim nor are a majority of those “fixes” you suggested, relevant to this particular issue.

This issue is occurring on multiple different combinations of hardware, therefore nothing has been fixed. Unless to you a fix is buying a certain combination of hardware, which just illustrates that the issue isn’t fixed at all without purchasing specific hardware or upgrading a bunch of random stuff including internet connection, which has no bearing on the issue at all.
If anything it just further highlights the issue with a majority of modern hardware, as a fix shouldn’t include having to repurchase “optimal hardware”. Optimal hardware should be readily accessible which as you pointed out, isn’t. It’s niche.
“No amount of tweaking will solve bad hardware purchasing decisions”. I don’t even know how to respond to that, as it’s extremely contradictory and patronising, so I’ll instead not.

Please stop telling people to “stop chasing unicorns”, you’ve incorrectly over-used that phase too many times now.

It’s painfully obvious you don’t or haven’t experienced the issue we have, so politely refrain from commenting on situations you are unfamiliar with while attempting to belittle those that are working on pinpointing the source. Thanks.

For future reference “just buy better hardware” isn’t a fix, it’s a rebuild. Which doesn’t solve, identify or diagnose a single thing. It could bypass the issue, sure, but what does that do to diagnose why the issue is occuring?

Also, the majority of us have tested on multiple combinations of hardware and software. So saying we have made “a bad purchasing decision” is ridiculous. I personally have tested on now 5 entirely separate custom made pc’s, are you suggesting that more often than not, hardware is to blame here? If so, then clearly that is no longer a user issue, it is a manufacturing one.

While a lot of what you said I generally agree with for other circumstances, when it comes to the relevance of this particular topic it’s all over the place, unspecific and wishy washy.
If anything I’d say the advice is more aimed towards general gaming performance and hitreg as opposed to the issue of input latency.

[mago]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNrZCigWu_4

disabling USB legacy XHCI HandOff after flash the bios
made same improvement

what platform you use?

motherboard - Z690 GAMING X DDR4
12700K

[Hyote]

All these were tried and it never fixed the issue. you must not have it like the others.

Please, stop chasing unicorns.
Just admit that you've made a bad purchasing decision and you lack the knowledge to setup software correctly.
Stop coping with random tweaks that most people on the forums here don't know what they do.
I've laid out the entire formula people need to follow and there are many github guides which go much further in-depth about this.
The solution is out there, people just lack reading comprehension and want to be spoonfed, that's the problem.

That's interesting because a lot of tweaking almost fixed my problems despite having bad electricity and internet while also being on a mid-high end pc from 2020. I think Windows is more of a culprit. Had problems with my pc from 2016, fixed it by going on an older tweaked Windows version, same solution worked now. However the things you write are great, despite the only solution being about buying the most expensive pc possible.

No amount of tweaking will solve bad hardware purchasing decisions
Anything above Ivy (DoA due to IPC, also avoid imo) and below 11th gen Intel or below Zen3 on AMD side is bad and should be avoided by all cost (Spectre/Meltdown, low core count, instabilities, dual CCD on AMD side etc.)
It's how hardware is, you either buy the best or you're gonna have issues.
Also, do you have a $10k oscilloscope with $10k probes to say your electricity is bad? Until then, your anecdotes have little objective measure.
There's no denying that after Windows 7, the bloat increased. That's why I've mentioned it as a step.
To further elaborate on the "Good Software" part, for having good game compatibility:
It's either between Server 2022 or W11 23H2 (or newer) due to them having working Timer Resolution, which is used for capping FPS in most games.
Most of the issues people on these forums have been solved already, if anyone bothered reading guides such as Calypto's, DJDallman's Bored's, Amit's ones.
Amit especially had a section in regards to which Windows version to choose.

I swear by LTSC 1809 at the moment. Amit and Calypto have good guides but I never understood why people like them go 60% of the way then say that'll all there is to it. Both of them have bad power plan suggestions. Mine is probably the lowest latency power plan out of all the ones I tried. There is also a video on the 10850k feeling faster than a 13900k because it has lower latency.
About the oscilloscope part: there isn't a need to prove anything scientifically, it's just obvious that things are more responsive at certain times and then they get worse. I made comparison videos where the difference was clearly visible.
My problem with newer tech is the fact that every generation gets performance improvement for the cost of added latency. I think the latest greatest mentality stopped being true after somewhere around 2017.
Like seriously, games forcing TAA, phones not having jack, trash soulless AI art and design, AI cores, AI upscaling, fake upon fake.

[Sandy]

Many people cannot correctly describe the phenomenon they encounter. In fact, this is a USB port input delay problem. This problem has existed for many years. Unless companies like Microsoft and Intel AMD take this problem seriously, there is currently no solution...

It's been solved for years as well, people just like to repeat lies.
This entire forum subsection just likes to chase unicorns & some other mythical, fictive beasts.
The problem is solved by having (no particular order):
- Being close to server (networking) + investing in proper line,
- Good electricity,
- Stable & fast hardware (low ripple PSU's such as AX1600i or anything Corsair , Good cooling - AIO or custom loop, ≥10 layer PCB MOBO, 8 core CPU - 3d cache if AMD, latest Intel, GPU - Ada/Blackwell or RDNA2, RAM (≥32GB DDR5 A-Die or M-die), SSD (990 Pro / Intel Optane) => NOTE: IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO "OVERCLOCK", DON'T. DON'T FOLLOW YOUTUBE "TUTORIALS")
- Good software (tuned Windows & disabling junk BG processes that use CPU cycles or use I/O resources),
- Good drivers (GPU, NIC, USB) & proper CPU affinities for them,
- Good frametimes (mess with a lower Timer Resolution & in-game caps or mess with RTSS cap),
- Proper peripherals (8KHz mouse by Razer, low profile & hall effect / optical keyboard , properly compliant ≥240hz monitor such as X25, XL2566K strobed, PG248QP or derivatives in 1080p range, PG27AQN, 27G1S or OLED in 1440p/4k spectrum).
That's the entire formula. There's nothing fancy about it.
I wish I could pin this, so people can stop being obnoxious with the ridiculous thread names and "no solution..." conclusions.

If you are using anything else other than this recipe, don't go wondering how your cake tastes sour or bitter.
No amount of tweaking can fix bad hardware & physics.

I have an old Intel Pentium 4 CPU computer using a CRT monitor and PS\2 mouse and it has never had any issues with 0 input lag. I can responsibly say that modern USB chipsets have physical input lag bugs that are not easy for ordinary users. Found this problem unless big companies come forward to solve this problem

[Slender]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNrZCigWu_4

disabling USB legacy XHCI HandOff after flash the bios
made same improvement

what platform you use?

motherboard - Z690 GAMING X DDR4
12700K

can you connect any usb 3.0 device into usb 3.0 port z790 chipset intel usb and show me usbtreeviewer connected device info with xhci hand off --- on / off

[kyube]

I have an old Intel Pentium 4 CPU computer using a CRT monitor and PS\2 mouse and it has never had any issues with 0 input lag. I can responsibly say that modern USB chipsets have physical input lag bugs that are not easy for ordinary users. Found this problem unless big companies come forward to solve this problem

- CRT's have much lower input lag than modern LCD's (+ low persistence image, should be ~2-1ms MPRT due to strobing, which is miles ahead of everything)
- I don't know what OS you've used to claim this, but a properly setup modern Windows (11) with a 8KHz and a proper driver (AMD w/ w7 driver or ASmedia with their driver) runs circles around PS/2 in terms of DPC, ISR & latency.
- The only games you can play on Pentium are games which are optimised a lot more than modern titles, hence the frametimes are much better. Try running QW on a modern CPU on a 8KHz mouse, tuned affinities and ASMedia controlle or AMD PCH w/ W7 driver.

I swear by LTSC 1809 at the moment. Amit and Calypto have good guides but I never understood why people like them go 60% of the way then say that'll all there is to it. Both of them have bad power plan suggestions. Mine is probably the lowest latency power plan out of all the ones I tried. There is also a video on the 10850k feeling faster than a 13900k because it has lower latency.
About the oscilloscope part: there isn't a need to prove anything scientifically, it's just obvious that things are more responsive at certain times and then they get worse. I made comparison videos where the difference was clearly visible.
My problem with newer tech is the fact that every generation gets performance improvement for the cost of added latency. I think the latest greatest mentality stopped being true after somewhere around 2017.
Like seriously, games forcing TAA, phones not having jack, trash soulless AI art and design, AI cores, AI upscaling, fake upon fake.

See, this is the problem with this forum. People believe in this repeated nonsense because they haven't read a single decently written article.
If you've actually read through the guides I've mentioned, you wouldn't need anything else. But hey, gotta feed ur ego, like u did here

Mine is probably the lowest latency power plan out of all the ones I tried.

Let me guess, you've found some completely irrelevant regedit tweaks posted on some obscure website which you haven't verified at all other than "FEEL" (not knowing "FEEL" is dependant on physics, such as your neighbour turning on their washing machine or not if your circuitry is bad or if testing online depending on whether your line is getting hammered by people watching youtube videos - this is all without going into psychological factors)

Not only this, but you quote the braindead video Tech YES City made, in which he claims the "10850k IS LOWER LATENCY THAN 13900K" when a "benchmark" he used was this



This is just one of many completely irrelevant benchmarks he has in the video, this video is completely malicious and ill informed about how hardware, physics and testing latency works.

LatencyMon is a redundant test and doesn't reveal anything, high speed cameras don't scratch the surface. He used a chinese-ware SSD, a cheap PSU which chokes the GPU and very likely had his GPU downclock during testing (XDDD)
He hasn't even debloated any install he had (God knows if he even realizes that he might've had a unstable CPU, RAM, GPU and made the test even more irrelevant)
90% of that video is complete bogus and should be completely disregarded.

I can agree that games are getting bloated and devs clearly are not targetting low latency & high fps with modern games, but that's about it.

[Hyote]

I have an old Intel Pentium 4 CPU computer using a CRT monitor and PS\2 mouse and it has never had any issues with 0 input lag. I can responsibly say that modern USB chipsets have physical input lag bugs that are not easy for ordinary users. Found this problem unless big companies come forward to solve this problem

- CRT's have much lower input lag than modern LCD's (+ low persistence image, should be ~2-1ms MPRT due to strobing, which is miles ahead of everything)
- I don't know what OS you've used to claim this, but a properly setup modern Windows (11) with a 8KHz and a proper driver (AMD w/ w7 driver or ASmedia with their driver) runs circles around PS/2 in terms of DPC, ISR & latency.
- The only games you can play on Pentium are games which are optimised a lot more than modern titles, hence the frametimes are much better. Try running QW on a modern CPU on a 8KHz mouse, tuned affinities and ASMedia controlle or AMD PCH w/ W7 driver.

I swear by LTSC 1809 at the moment. Amit and Calypto have good guides but I never understood why people like them go 60% of the way then say that'll all there is to it. Both of them have bad power plan suggestions. Mine is probably the lowest latency power plan out of all the ones I tried. There is also a video on the 10850k feeling faster than a 13900k because it has lower latency.
About the oscilloscope part: there isn't a need to prove anything scientifically, it's just obvious that things are more responsive at certain times and then they get worse. I made comparison videos where the difference was clearly visible.
My problem with newer tech is the fact that every generation gets performance improvement for the cost of added latency. I think the latest greatest mentality stopped being true after somewhere around 2017.
Like seriously, games forcing TAA, phones not having jack, trash soulless AI art and design, AI cores, AI upscaling, fake upon fake.

See, this is the problem with this forum. People believe in this repeated nonsense because they haven't read a single decently written article.
If you've actually read through the guides I've mentioned, you wouldn't need anything else. But hey, gotta feed ur ego, like u did here

Mine is probably the lowest latency power plan out of all the ones I tried.

Let me guess, you've found some completely irrelevant regedit tweaks posted on some obscure website which you haven't verified at all other than "FEEL" (not knowing "FEEL" is dependant on physics, such as your neighbour turning on their washing machine or not if your circuitry is bad or if testing online depending on whether your line is getting hammered by people watching youtube videos - this is all without going into psychological factors)

Not only this, but you quote the braindead video Tech YES City made, in which he claims the "10850k IS LOWER LATENCY THAN 13900K" when a "benchmark" he used was this



This is just one of many completely irrelevant benchmarks he has in the video, this video is completely malicious and ill informed about how hardware, physics and testing latency works.

LatencyMon is a redundant test and doesn't reveal anything, high speed cameras don't scratch the surface. He used a chinese-ware SSD, a cheap PSU which chokes the GPU and very likely had his GPU downclock during testing (XDDD)
He hasn't even debloated any install he had (God knows if he even realizes that he might've had a unstable CPU, RAM, GPU and made the test even more irrelevant)
90% of that video is complete bogus and should be completely disregarded.

I can agree that games are getting bloated and devs clearly are not targetting low latency & high fps with modern games, but that's about it.

You just want it to believe that whatever I did/researched is nonsensical. No irrelevant registry tweak for the power plan, just options that other people disregard because they focus on the known settings. Like even power plans from Calypto or the Bitsum Higher Performance lack in some aspects. And again you convince yourself that I didn't read any of the guides when I read all of them. I was a part of multiple optimizing communities, just as a tester and listener. All I'm claiming is that there are settings that make gaming better undeniably. And it's also a truth that Windows from 1809 and above is almost a latency fest garbage. Even this version is questionable because 1709 was so much better. But this is the bare minimum for basically everything.

[kyube]

I'll dissect this one by one.

Not everyone here is experiencing the same issue, whilst yes the points you brought to the table are relevant in certain situations and may be helpful to some, this input issue simply hasn’t been resolved as you claim nor are a majority of those “fixes” you suggested, relevant to this particular issue.

95% of topics here are people who don't know how to verify a Windows ISO, which tweaks to apply to this ISO, which drivers to install for optimal DPC/ISR latency (a huge culprit of "FLOATY MOUSE that's the cause of 95% of people's issue"), what USB affinties are and bad hardware purchasing decisions.

This issue is occurring on multiple different combinations of hardware, therefore nothing has been fixed. Unless to you a fix is buying a certain combination of hardware, which just illustrates that the issue isn’t fixed at all without purchasing specific hardware or upgrading a bunch of random stuff including internet connection, which has no bearing on the issue at all.
If anything it just further highlights the issue with a majority of modern hardware, as a fix shouldn’t include having to repurchase “optimal hardware”. Optimal hardware should be readily accessible which as you pointed out, isn’t. It’s niche.
“No amount of tweaking will solve bad hardware purchasing decisions”. I don’t even know how to respond to that, as it’s extremely contradictory and patronising, so I’ll instead not.

It’s painfully obvious you don’t or haven’t experienced the issue we have, so politely refrain from commenting on situations you are unfamiliar with while attempting to belittle those that are working on pinpointing the source. Thanks.

In fact I did, I just came across a set of people who aren't blinded by individuals which r0ach spawned since early OCN mice section days.
I've actually accumulated all issues people can have into my post, it's just that it's a high-level overview of each problem.

For future reference “just buy better hardware” isn’t a fix, it’s a rebuild. Which doesn’t solve, identify or diagnose a single thing. It could bypass the issue, sure, but what does that do to diagnose why the issue is occuring?

It is a fix.
Are you implying higher fps (13700k / 7800X3D) does not lead to overall lower input latency compared to a skylake / zen2 CPU with barely working 6 cores?

Are you implying buying a properly compliant monitor such as the X 25 or a OLED, when compared to IPS monitors, won't lead to overall lower input latency, when each transition and especially fall transitions (which IPS is notoriously bad at and a major culprit of desktop cursor feel) is multiple orders faster over 240-500hz IPS?
(We're talking gamma correted on both, using the same tool such as the OSRTT or a proper oscilloscope)

Are you implying using a 8KHz Razer mouse with properly tuned USB affinities and USB driver does not lead to overall input latency reduction compared to (God forbid) wireless GPX or a Zowie mouse?

And it goes on, and on...

Hardware is the foundation, you cannot build a fortress on inadequate ground.

Also, the majority of us have tested on multiple combinations of hardware and software. So saying we have made “a bad purchasing decision” is ridiculous. I personally have tested on now 5 entirely separate custom made pc’s, are you suggesting that more often than not, hardware is to blame here? If so, then clearly that is no longer a user issue, it is a manufacturing one.

n=5 is a statistically irrelevant number, you could've had 5 bad PC's.
If you want to take the electricity troubleshooting route, a simple change in location can reveal the issue.
Yes, most issues people have here did bad hardware purchases (or did bad HW/BIOS tweaks, leading to instability of a component) and bad software tweaks.
Most modern hardware is atrocious sadly, the users are misinformed and it snowballs into the pile of input lag threads we have today.

While a lot of what you said I generally agree with for other circumstances, when it comes to the relevance of this particular topic it’s all over the place, unspecific and wishy washy.
If anything I’d say the advice is more aimed towards general gaming performance and hitreg as opposed to the issue of input latency.

I think I've already answered this with my answers above.
To reiterate, my first post is a high-level overview, whose details have been greatly discussed by a lot of other, more knowledgeable people (Calypto, Bored, DJDallman, Amit)

You just want it to believe that whatever I did/researched is nonsensical. No irrelevant registry tweak for the power plan, just options that other people disregard because they focus on the known settings. Like even power plans from Calypto or the Bitsum Higher Performance lack in some aspects. And again you convince yourself that I didn't read any of the guides when I read all of them. I was a part of multiple optimizing communities, just as a tester and listener. All I'm claiming is that there are settings that make gaming better undeniably. And it's also a truth that Windows from 1809 and above is almost a latency fest garbage. Even this version is questionable because 1709 was so much better. But this is the bare minimum for basically everything.

Good, it is lovely to see enlightened people in this subforum.
Everyone can agree to your statement about newer Windows releases having clear negatives.
But, I don't quite understand how you fail to realise the awful comparison of Rocket Lake vs Raptor Lake that Tech YES City has done?
Maybe this thread might convince you:
https://rog-forum.asus.com/t5/intel-500 ... d-p/812999