Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

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senny22
Posts: 92
Joined: 03 May 2019, 17:40

Re: Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

Post by senny22 » 28 Aug 2020, 06:50

BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 06:38
senny22 wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 03:25
BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 17:43
Picked up the Apex Pro TKL Aug 20th. I haven't plugged it in yet, however I just took it out of the packaging today, for the first time. I also have a Bloody B820R. Will be giving a 'Feels' type review & comparison once I get through some other queued up hardware first.
If you have some o-rings laying around, try to place a couple under your "wasd" keys if you want to improve responsiveness. I really, really liked it for gaming and have done so on the ctrl, shift, and space keys as well. Though this hurts typing, it's really great for responsive input when gaming.
I've put some 40A 1.8mm WASD brand o-rings under the keys on the Bloody B820R. Odd thing is they were advertised & labeled .4mm until I pulled out my digital caliper. They seem a little bit too thin and I was thinking of getting a thicker o-ring. Can you recommend a place, hardness, and thickness to go with?

Can they (o-rings) be use under the Apex Pro keys? I thought I seen a video that showed there wasn't a normal type stem under the Apex keys e.g. like you would see on a MX Cherry switch.

Thanks
I've been using 3 of these (https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/dato ... ack-p61612) o-rings per key and it works perfectly when using the lightest actuation point on those keys. It says that the oring are supposed to reduce travel distance by 0.4mm so theoretically, a thickness of 1.2mm total would be ideal.

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BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 190
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 28 Aug 2020, 07:00

senny22 wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 06:50
BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 06:38
senny22 wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 03:25
BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 17:43
Picked up the Apex Pro TKL Aug 20th. I haven't plugged it in yet, however I just took it out of the packaging today, for the first time. I also have a Bloody B820R. Will be giving a 'Feels' type review & comparison once I get through some other queued up hardware first.
If you have some o-rings laying around, try to place a couple under your "wasd" keys if you want to improve responsiveness. I really, really liked it for gaming and have done so on the ctrl, shift, and space keys as well. Though this hurts typing, it's really great for responsive input when gaming.
I've put some 40A 1.8mm WASD brand o-rings under the keys on the Bloody B820R. Odd thing is they were advertised & labeled .4mm until I pulled out my digital caliper. They seem a little bit too thin and I was thinking of getting a thicker o-ring. Can you recommend a place, hardness, and thickness to go with?

Can they (o-rings) be use under the Apex Pro keys? I thought I seen a video that showed there wasn't a normal type stem under the Apex keys e.g. like you would see on a MX Cherry switch.

Thanks
I've been using 3 of these (https://www.kjell.com/se/produkter/dato ... ack-p61612) o-rings per key and it works perfectly when using the lightest actuation point on those keys. It says that the oring are supposed to reduce travel distance by 0.4mm so theoretically, a thickness of 1.2mm total would be ideal.
These guys are pretty accurate when advertising the thickness of the o-rings they sell. The 1.5mm I bought from them were exactly 1.5mm, the WASD "0.4mm" I bought from Micro Center turned out to be 1.8mm, according to my digital caliper.

EDIT: whoops, forgot the link, hehe: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/in ... _list&c=75

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BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 190
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 29 Aug 2020, 09:51

So I decided to give it a run before a full review. I didn't install the software, or engine. Can you adjust the actuation point without either? Cause the scroll wheel doesn't do anything, nor any of the buttons. I"m assuming you can cause someone said they didn't install the software but manually set the actuation points.

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BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 190
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 10 Sep 2020, 19:37

When you pick up both keyboards and compare them you can hear the Bloody keys rattle like a box of Nerds (the candy) where as the Apex Pro is quiet. The keys feel like they are connected to the mechanical part of the switch better on the Apex Pro. I doubt this effects performance but it's something to note. The Apex feels like it's built better too, it has a rigidness to it, where as the Bloody feels light in weight and cheap. Again, not a performance metric. The resistance on the key-stroke feels lighter on the Bloody vs the Apex. The USB cord on the Apex is much thicker than the Bloody where-as the Bloody USB cord to me feels flimsy. The key travel distance on the Bloody 820R is noticeably shorter than on the Apex giving it less distance to rebound back to the set position. This does influence user-input latency.

OmniPoint
Key Response Time = 0.7ms
Total Key Travel Distance = 4mm
Actuation Point = Adjustable: Setting 1 the travel to actuation point is 0.4mm, setting 10 the travel to actuation point is 3.6 mm

Light Strike (LK)
Key Response Time = 0.2ms
Total Key Travel Distance = 3mm
Actuation Point = 1.8mm

BUILD QUALITY
Apex - 10
Bloody 820R - 8

PERFORMANCE, by feeling
Apex - 10
Bloody - 9

The Apex has a slight speed advantage ONLY due to being able to set the actuation point to 1, thus movement feels more precise and accurate.
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csplayer
Posts: 13
Joined: 26 Aug 2020, 12:10

Re: Apex Pro TKL, Improvement in Input Latency and Measurments against other keyboards.

Post by csplayer » 13 Oct 2020, 22:01

senny22 wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 07:42
I bought the Apex Pro TKL a couple of days ago because I kind off fell for the marketing in regards to responsiveness and input lag because I was sick of a very sluggish movement in games on my keyboards with content Red and Cherry MX Blue switches. I could just return the keyboard if it didn't improve anything.

However, I can now say that the difference between my other keyboards in games like CS:GO is noticeable when using the actuation point at 1 (lightest setting). Actually moving out from a corner and stopping to shoot before getting killed is possible sometimes now.

Also, the switches are INCREDIBLY smooth, like insanely smooth compared to any Red switch that I've tried before and using the actuation point at around 6 makes the keyboard almost more enjoyable to write on compared to my MX blue switches.

Anyway, if anyone wants me to do any tests (not sure what tests though) with this keyboard and compare it to my other keyboards then I'd be happy to.

Edit: I made some measurements.

Method: I loaded up D2 long in CS:GO and binded "fire" to the letter "p". I then proceeded to press "p" (as fast and consistently as I could) while recording in 960 fps on my smartphone camera until the first on-screen-reaction. Then I loaded up the recordings and measured each frame between my finger hitting the top of the keycap until the first on-screen-reaction. I did this for 7 times for each keyboard / actuation setting. Finally, I calculated the average frames, divided them by 960 and multiplied that with 1000 to get ms (I avereged it out to full ms). The FPS was locked at 237 and Freesync was activated. Now this test isn't very scientific and should be taken with some grain of salt so bear that in mind.

It took me around 4-5 ms from hitting the keycap top bottoming out which should mean that the difference between actuation points should be at the most 4 ms. Also, Simply based on the switch the Brown and Blue switches should theoretically be the slowest while the Red Switches should be in the middle and the OmniPoint with light actuation the fastest.

Results:
- Cooler Master MK 730, Cherry MX Blue Switches: 27 ms.

- Deltaco GAM 075, Content Red Switches: 24 ms.

- Ducky One 2, Cherry MX Brown Switches: 23 ms.

- Apex Pro TKL, OmniPoint Switches, Actuation setting 7 (heavier than medium, also heavier than Red Switches): 20 ms.

- Apex Pro TKL, OmniPoint Switches, Actuation setting 4 (what I believe is close to Red Switches): 19 ms.

- Apex Pro TKL, OmniPoint Switches, Actuation setting 1 (lightest): 16 ms.

Conclusion: As the testing shows, the Apex Pro TKL is somewhat faster compared the the other keyboard I had available and could test.

Regarding the Ducky with the Brown switches, it seems that it was faster than it should be since it was 4 ms faster than the Cooler Master with Blue Switches. Perhaps this has got something to do with the other electronics in the Keyboards,with the Ducky being the better one compared to the Deltaco and Cooler Master.

As for the Apex Pro TKL, it seems that the marketing actually holds some water in this case. SteelSeries claim a response time (debounce time) of 0.7ms vs 6ms in standard mechanical switches.In actuality though, I've read that Cherry MX Switches typically have 5ms of debounce. This should make the Apex Pro TKL just over 4 ms faster compared to regular switches, disregarding the actuation point. The Apex with actuation setting 4 (close to reds) was also just that, 4 ms faster than the ducky and 5 ms faster than the Deltaco keyboard. Using the lightest actuation force (basically tapping the button just enough to move), the Apex got even faster at 16 ms. All in all, using the lightest Actuation it seems you can gain around 6-8 ms of input delay using the Apex Keyboard compared to some other alternatives.

It definitely would be interesting to try some optical switches like on the Razer Huntsman keyboard but that's not something I'm gonna be able to do but according to Brandon Taylor, the Huntsman is even faster than the Apex Pro.
You should try the difference versus the GK61 optical yellow! It's a much more affordable option, should be like 50-60 depending on where you get it from. Would be interesting, i'm getting it and will be doing testing comparing it to my old steelsieres apex m600 mechanical keyboard.

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