Input lag and eSport. Every gamer should know this.

[dendu]

I did some more testing with the suggestions to crop the MouseTester graphs and stress the PC more. The new graphs did not really highlight anything different with or without the ferrite beads or is beyond my ability to capture or interpret. While in CSGO to triple check the effects of the ferrites, I was humbled a bit.

With enough back to back testing (offline map with bots), it became apparent that something else has a greater effect on mouse movement then the ferrites on my setup.

I found the post that started this for me:

I have messed around with ferrites and toroids and while they do make a difference for some (temporary) amount of time, they ultimately do not fix it. So that being said, I know its EMI affecting data cables in particular, likely power cables as well (I have placed toroids on the power cables and it changes mouse tracking drastically), I just do not know how to find out what is generating such powerful EMI in my electrical system. ~nuggify

I come to similar findings now. The ferrites and moving cables/fan wires around have an effect that can be felt through the mouse but electricity/EMI/RFI issues are not really something that can be measured or tweaked away so easily.

I will not even talk about windows and bios settings, this does not reduce the input lag in any way. ~Ekwalipt

Need perfect electricity without electromagnetic interference. ~Ekwalipt

In ideal environment (good electricity, low EMI) even with unstable polling rate you could still have better input-lag and/or mouse movement than somebody with very stable polling rate but bad environment. ~ffs_

I am starting to understand, although at first, chasing the perfect mouse movement through tweaking and applying all sorts of settings seems so promising that it will yield fruit, but it never has consistency/permanence for some because of deeper underlying electrical issues.

I also now understand why the Chief and others are so adamant in testing procedures and scientific methods. Placebo is real and pinpointing cause and effect is not so simple.

Now motivated to try out this overkill line conditioner(Topaz Line) I have along with grounding/earthing testing. I never bothered with the conditioner because it weighs like 50kg and I think it will consume more watts plugged in then the actual computer. Will update with findings soon.

TLDR; Ferrite beads/cores most likely do not do anything useful as a permanent fix for those with mouse movement/input lag issues.

[dendu]

TL;DR: Power conditioners do NOT help with inconsistent mouse movement/input lag due to electrical issues.

I got to testing a heavy duty power conditioner in hopes of improving mouse movement consistency(sometimes too floaty and uncontrollable, sometimes very sharp and responsive).

Some images:
https://imgur.com/a/DBeBV6O

The Topaz Line2 is a ferroresonant power conditioner. It does things like isolation, noise reduction, and protects from sagging/surging. Keep in mind that mine is old and used. It weighs at least 50kg and when turned on it uses 100 watts by itself and makes a humming noise that would be annoying if placed near living areas, when an electric water boiler is used the Line2 sometimes starts buzzing and clunking. This conditioner had a minor effect on mouse movement, but did not help with mouse movement inconsistency.

I also have a couple of older power conditioners designed for audio equipment, one passive and one active(consumes 15 watts), both these along with fancy power cables have NO effect on inconsistent mouse movement.

The best type of EMI/RFI "filtering" is a good low impedance grounding (return path for transient current) - nothing else can make up for this. ~nuggify

I watched youtube link from the power/emi thread on how you can improve grounding by connecting multiple copper grounding rods together to lower impedance and that is what I hope to try next.

[Ekwalipt]

Ferrite Core Setup


No Ferrite Cores


With Ferrite Cores


I collected many logs to get the time scale similar on both graphs. At first it looked like a pattern(smoothness) was emerging, but nope, after enough logging there is no difference really with ferrite cores on or off according to MouseTester.

However, in-game (CSGO), without the ferrite cores, my mouse movement constantly overshoots, swinging back and forth pass the target. I am used to having the ferrite cores on, so I guess I am over compensating in aim and the ferrite cores have a dampening effect, lowering the floatiness and making the crosshair more controllable on my setup.

Input lag even with an oscilloscope is problematic to measure, not to mention programs that themselves already work with input lag. The mouse poll frequency is one thing, but input lag is another.

It is unlikely that mouse tester should show any difference when installing ferrite rings. To date, the best way to measure input lag is to put a professional gamer or eSports player who has never played with input lag at the computer. These people will feel it immediately.

By the way, there is one professional in Russla who was top 1 in Russla on Face it 4 years ago( nick Ex4mple). Then he moved to a new apartment and encountered input lag there. Now he has abandoned the game and does not play it at all, trying to find another apartment where it will be like before.

Such are the pies, this is the reality, input lag is an anomaly and nothing else.

[The1Mach1ne]

Bring in a professional and let us know the findings

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcas ... g-biology/

https://shieldedhealing.com/pages/about

I see these EMF/electrical interference posts come up all of the time but no one has really fixed their problems because we are just guessing. I suspect I may have these problems as well because sometimes my games feel amazing and other times they feel aweful and there is zero reason for the difference.

So with what I linked, it's not about gaming and it is health oriented, but I remember when I listened to their first podcast, Ben had fields from underground springs causing electrical disturbances.

So this shit is likely a bigger and harder to pin down issue than anyone could imagine. Maybe someone with more electrical knowledge can take a listen and see if they think things things could be applying to our gaming PCs!!

[Q83Ia7ta]

I like how people find/invent problems in hardware and not themselves (their skills). If they never compete at high level by attending LAN tournaments (different PC) then they have good reasons to blame their hardware. This trending input lag hysteria. Oh...

[mello]

I like how people find/invent problems in hardware and not themselves (their skills).

This problem is real and you are completely oblivious to it, as you have never experienced it yourself. It has literally nothing to do with someones skill in the game, and no one is making this stuff up. Just be glad you have never been affected by it or else you would be going crazy like many people here and in other places.

If they never compete at high level by attending LAN tournaments (different PC) then they have good reasons to blame their hardware.

More ignorance. No one here is talking about LAN tournaments, but playing over the internet. And no one here is (or even should) blame this on hardware, as it is not a hardware related problem.

This trending input lag hysteria. Oh...

Again, you are clueless. This problem has been known & has been occuring for nearly 20 years, at least since the early days of Counter-Strike.

[Unixko]

I like how people find/invent problems in hardware and not themselves (their skills). If they never compete at high level by attending LAN tournaments (different PC) then they have good reasons to blame their hardware. This trending input lag hysteria. Oh...

i had 14 000 hours in cs go and i am playing every day and my aim tracing first bullet spray control is random every day even when i practice all of this everything is random always it is input lag hysteria obv stfu you fucking moron

[nick4567]

I like how people find/invent problems in hardware and not themselves (their skills). If they never compete at high level by attending LAN tournaments (different PC) then they have good reasons to blame their hardware. This trending input lag hysteria. Oh...

the problems cause isnt known but this is why we have sites like this with great people trying to help and discover the unknown so while theres no hard data backing this there are correlations i think in time (and as esports is growing to a significant degree not that much time) someone will have a solution with accurate measurements (cause and effect graphs all sorts of data to back it up) but going around saying the problem doesnt exist when lots of people are complaining of it does no help at all i would also like to add that there are scientific problems outside of input lag that have yet to be solved there are theories and hypothesis for a reason and we are taking it on ourselves to get to the bottom of it out of ignorance sometimes comes beautiful understanding

[AddictFPS]

I will say right away that the monitor delay is correctly called Output lag, because the monitor is an output device and Output lag does not present critical problems. A serious problem is the input lag of input devices (mouse, keyboard, gamepad), and to be more precise, the problem lies in the processing of the input signal.

Thanks for all info !

But a detail, i consider monitor processing signal also input lag, without any doubt. Because all delays from mouse movement or keyboard press, until the eye can see a pixel changing its color is internal delay, no matter if is at monitor side. Try a old monitor or TV with 40ms But response time can be considered output lag, because from start the pixel is changing color so technicaly is not signal lag, is color changing lag, motion blur.

[nuggify]

Alright so I have been at this for awhile now and have not updated on any of these threads in some time. At one point in time I thought it had to be due to the net currents on my waterlines (copper). With new evidence (yes real hard evidence) thanks to Aggrjack we have shed some light on what may be the cause. Before I get into it though I want to clarify something. I do not think EMI is a component of this problem necessarily. First off I have a good online UPS that double converts the AC to DC. EMI and other transients cannot traverse this process. So in this way the chase for fixing EMI problems that most here, and I myself participate in is likely fruitless.

So thanks to AggrJack with the help of his POCO and the lead engineer there set up a PA-9 + power qaulity monitor. What they found was rather unusual. Very high current (not voltage) harmonic distortion on one of his phases. If you would like to follow along and are seious about finding the solution to this issue that so many of us are plagued with all over the world, shoot me a DM and ill invite you to the discord. We clearly dont know the cause of the high harmonic distortion however we now have real data and proof that somethingis seriously amis. And to anyone that thinks this is placebo, consider yourself very, very lucky to have never dealt with this issue. It can absolutely ruin your experience gaming, and cause you incredible grief and burned cash trying to troubleshoot.