I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Oct 2020, 14:32

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 22:42
Based on my experience, majority of games don't actually do that. But yes, some of the modern games do (e.g. Valorant, Apex Legends).
Oh yes, that probably explains it.

That was why Valorant felt MUCH better than CS:GO with high-DPI settings. Thanks for the clarification; I should add that caveat that some legacy games/engines are unable to do subpixel motion.

This underlies the problem of consistency of user experience.
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 22:42
Maybe 400 x 1.0 vs 20000 x 0.02 for the most dramatic effect? ;)
Ha. I'm mainly sticking to 3200dpi in Windows mostly for now, simply because the cursor is beautiful and the mouse feels uber precise at fast flicks. At Windows 10 Sensitivity Setting in center (10), 3200dpi translates 1 inch movement by 1600 pixels. I leave that untouched, since I don't want older games to get wrecked by non-default Windows sensitivity settings.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 08:22
I'm not so sure about this because the viewport is different in zoomed and unzoomed views. Is the zoom_sensitivity_ratio = 1.0 in your test?
Oh yes -- good point -- adjusting sensitivity differently for scope will produce different results -- some perceptible, some not perceptible. Different users have widely difference preferences. The settings many esports players use has varied quite a lot.

Some people even actually prefer the steppy-steppy effet because it's like counting the tickmarks of a ruler. (I don't like that though)

Personally, I'm a recreational player than a professional player, but I certainly see a lot of gamers sticking to old DPI settings even when they move from older games to modern games (capable of subpixel).
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 06 Oct 2020, 14:33

ffs_ wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 11:20
I use 400 DPI, 1000 hz and 1.8 sensitivity in CS:GO. Tried to play with 0.45 & 1600 DPI, but it was almost impossible to aim. Perhaps I'm too used to 400 DPI after 20 years of playing... or high DPI is rather suitable for high sensitivity players (1000+ eDPI) and doesn't make too much sense for those who prefer low sensitivity. Or should I get out of my comfort zone and force myself to get used to 1600 dpi just because it supposed to be "better" in theory? 🤔🤔🤔
See above, Razer just explained the problem -- older games didn't do subpixel motion correctly, while several modern games can do it properly.

The litmus test is that fast flick turns should feel identical for both high and low sensitivity. If a game properly processes it, then that's what happens.
PixelDuck87 wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 11:40
I find lower dpi works as a "filter" for me, it doesn't pick up micro-movements as much. Like how its easier to draw a straight line with 400dpi than 1600 dpi. Since my aim movements are more like Z pattern rather than S pattern i'd much rather prefer low dpi also...
This also makes sense -- the wide ranging user preferences is quite important.

Also, I will also acknowledge the game-dependance of the DPI processing. Flawed algorithms, unintentional game-side smoothing, unintentional acceleration behaviors (caused by old game engine math not designed for modern mice), etc. Software are imperfect black boxes that a mouse must contend with.

I'll add the caveat of many factors.
-- It's like how certain esports player love to use exaggerated overdrive (while camping still as a sniper) as a motion-tracer feature, since the overdrive artifacts amplifies the visibility of moving objects.
-- Or temporarily wreck their color calibration color gamut with a bleached gamma of a shadow-boost feature to see things in shadows better.
-- Or use low DPI as a stepping-ruler feature (feel the ticks of coarseness) or a non-artificially-smoothed hand-motion-error filtering feature.

All Right Tools for the Right Job.

Myself, I am a motion perfectionist, and I like Gametime-to-Photons as perfect sync as possible, as frequently as possible, to simulate analog motion as accurately as possible.

Alas, we are opening so many Pandora's Boxes, eh?
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by AddictFPS » 07 Oct 2020, 06:35

Chief
Doubts about subpixel sensitivity improvement:

knowing than mainly pixel structure is 3 subpixels RGB (vertical rectangles), not seems a "stable" solution, because only will work horizontaly, not verticaly. So when move mouse very slow "pixel at pixel", horizontal result in 3x smoother mov with this improvement, but vertical continue with default pixel jumps. Diagonal is a mix. And this unbalanced axis sens not sound very good for get phisical mouse mov = crosshair mov independently of the direction.

Moreover, there are screens with others subpixel structures, BGR, or horizontal rectangles stacked vertically, or RGBW in recent LG OLED CX TV, making this improvement more hard to implement massively. But even programming detection and optimization to all structures, axis unbalanced is here, one axis fine, other not.

Seems more reliable just double screen resolution, 1080@2160, increased 2x the smoothness in both axis, with 1.0 sensi, and dpi at the player preference, that should be configured at hardware level at one by one dpi steps. Not 50 or 100 steps.
Razer
Thanks for work on 8K improvement, is a very big jump. Poll affinity optimization to one core, right from driver, sound amazing as well, and easy to all players that not know about these system tweaks. I did test with the affinity tool that NDUS link here, and others, from years ago in the 2-core CPU days and Windows XP, with good results in 1 core 3D games, like Return to Castle Wolfenstein (Quake3 engine), more smooth mov, less audio issues, and better frametime stability with VSync On. Yeah, worth it !

Off-Topic Razer plan restore the old "Drift Control" interpolation feature ? not activated by default obviously, is not intended for gaming. Only have one way to optionaly activate it.

I still have two units of the good old Deathadder 3G. This mouse has two firmwares 1.39 NDC (No Drift Control) and 1.40 DC with Drift Control directly done by the hardware. To play i used NDC, but for desktop tasks i prefer DC, so i need change the mouses. Unfortunately, after Deathadder 3G i not see any Razer mouse with this feature, nor in firmware, nor in drivers. Now i use for play more modern Razer mouses, but continue with Deathadder 3G for desktop to enjoy DC, and i would like to end this hassle of changing them.

Would be great if can be restored, in order to increase the mouse versatility beyond gaming. SteelSeries do it, and interpolation can be customized, is named "FreeMove", but they not have sensitivity per axis configuration, so i'm not interested.

Sorry for off-topic !

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Oct 2020, 21:55

AddictFPS wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 06:35
Doubts about subpixel sensitivity improvement:
Here's my standard TestUFO microphone-dropping see-for-yourself: www.testufo.com/aliasing-visibility ...

And for those who don't want to click, I'll embed that test here, in our forum's custom [testufo] tags:



That above test is moving the line in less than 0.05 pixels at a time per frame! The JavaScript line drawing commands are moving (X,Y) endpoint coordinates in less-than-pixel increments, you see.

You may not see the endpoints move much, but you can see the line jaggies move horizontally faster than the subpixel endpoint vertical movement. Subpixel leverage FTW!

And guess what? The 3D scenery on all modern GPUs can do that too for all 3D game scenery! Game scenery on modern GPUs can move subpixelly. Did you know that?
AddictFPS wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 06:35
knowing than mainly pixel structure is 3 subpixels RGB (vertical rectangles)
I am not talking about THAT kind of "thirds" subpixels.

I'm talking about movements in decimal pixels. Fractions of pixels in an antialiased way. Move 1.27563 pixel this way, 4.3126 pixel thattaway. You see? A 0.5 pixel movement in a FPS shooter is indeed visible if the pixels on your display is big enough to see.

Also, according to Razer, some games apparently don't do subpixel movements as well (e.g. CS:GO) while others (e.g. Valorant) does it properly even for ultrahigh DPIs (6400dpi+).
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Oct 2020, 23:08

AddictFPS wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 06:35
I still have two units of the good old Deathadder 3G. This mouse has two firmwares 1.39 NDC (No Drift Control) and 1.40 DC with Drift Control directly done by the hardware. To play i used NDC, but for desktop tasks i prefer DC, so i need change the mouses. Unfortunately, after Deathadder 3G i not see any Razer mouse with this feature, nor in firmware, nor in drivers. Now i use for play more modern Razer mouses, but continue with Deathadder 3G for desktop to enjoy DC, and i would like to end this hassle of changing them.
Subjective feeling, rather than quantitative benchmarks:

On my cloth mousepad, the 8000 Hz has no drift at all at my desktop -- it feels uncannily accurate at the desktop -- the mouse cursor feels literally weightless and frictionless, silk as smooth and feels perfectly in tune with my hand movements. This mousefeel is hard to benchmark but I didn't notice the need for drift control.

I even can move the mouse back and fourth for several minutes in the middle of the screen (keep wrist locked in place), and the cursor never drifts to the screen edges (from rounding errors or drifting effects). The mouse sensor rate really has very good physical lock to the mousepad, one of the best I've ever seen. I can't notice any drifting like I can see with many mice.

Can you describe your drift situation? Desk vibrations? I can indeed (barely) cause the cursor to drift if I am tapping the desk hard enough. For this particular mouse, it has larger-than-average smooth teflon pads (several times the surface area of other gaming mice I have), which seems to help prevent the cursor from drifting with small desk vibrations. Yet my cloth mousepad still feels darn near frictionless.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by csplayer » 08 Oct 2020, 09:09

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:20
Hello all,

Embargo lifts, I can reveal one cool stuff. I'm currently testing an amazing gaming mouse with an official 8000 Hz poll rate. Not overclocked -- the Razer Avalon -- this is a genuine true official 8000 Hz mouse sensor and poll rate. Razer clearly took my "More than 1000Hz" pleas to heart -- and actually built it, and the Overclock.net Mouse Overclocking Thread.

I am creating an article about this, along with Mouse Guide Reloaded (Followup to previous Mouse Guide by sharknice).

If any of you want to tell me additional tests to try with the mouse for this week's article, let me know!

Yes, yes, the difference IS perceptible with fast GPUs on 240Hz, 280Hz or 360Hz.

Image

Blur Busters article coming.
It might be interesting to see the polling data vs time when mouse is moving at same speed in a circle, with mousetester if you are familiar with that program.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 08 Oct 2020, 11:19

cloth does help eliminate environmental vibration chatter, however in a home setting this is really not very necessary as the drawbacks of most cloth pad hugely outweigh the benefits.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Oct 2020, 12:05

lyrill wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 11:19
cloth does help eliminate environmental vibration chatter, however in a home setting this is really not very necessary as the drawbacks of most cloth pad hugely outweigh the benefits.
Well, we probably should fork a "preferred mousepad" material thread :D -- maybe that should be part of somebody's 8000Hz sensor tests.

Also, when I say "cloth" I mean thin modern synthetic cloth pads from esports-aware companies. Those are generally synthetic "cloth" with no noticeable stiction and at really dense zigzaggy weaves that these modern sensors track well on, not a cheap fabric or bad weave pattern. Don't use the freebie corporate-logo cloth mousepad from your work office from 15 years ago.

But since it's an 8000Hz sensor, the discussion of mousepad being able to keep up with 8000Hz without mis-tracks is important as well as friction effects.

All kinds of mouse pads have their pros/cons, from the hard pads to the cloth pads and more. Proper cloth pads track pretty well with both 1000Hz and 8000Hz sensors because of the fine-detail cloth weaves in them with modern 16Kfps+ sensors. The sensor lock feels quite nice. The texture of proper esports-quality cloth is really very accurate tracking.
In some dusty household environments, hard mouse pads can cause mouse bottoms to get dirtier faster (creating mousefeel changes with the variable stiction effects and grainy effects; unless you clean mouse bottoms daily), while the cloth mousepads give mouse bottoms a continual polish effect. And the modern esports cloth mousepads are fully washable -- a single drop of dishwasher soap and water, and voila -- beautiful again.

Now, I concede hard mousepads have their advantages that are important to many competitive game players. Now, I've seen hard mouse pads track worse than modern cloth pads from esports-aware companies, it varies all across the board. It's all in the design of the texture of the mousepad to be optimal to all kinds of mouse sensors at the spectrum/framerate/etc that they use. Personally, I"m more of a cloth mousepad guy -- as long as it's an esports-aware brand that has properly selected the cloth (Even though I'm not a pro player).

Some pads have really worse stiction than others. Most people don't want weird stiction (sticky effects) in any mousepad. The stiction on synthetic cloth and hard mousepads is actually roughly similar Fortunately when I press the mouse downwards very hard (to test stiction effects) and try to move it, stiction should feel identical between a good synthetic cloth pad from an esports-aware company, and a hard pad. Fortunately, unless you're intentionally pressing and fortunately, I don't feel any stiction with the cloth pads even when 1-pixelling (paint software), so it's probably below human feelability in this case.

Now, other websites will be more in-depth about testing mousepads. Even this reddit thread about mousepad friction / stiction testing. (Disambiguation: "stiction" = static friction effect). But as this is 8000Hz, proper mousepad treatment is key. The newer synthetic cloth pads from esports-aware companies appear to be really, really good with this specific sensor, at least -- but it would be interesting to try other common pad types. Others will have to do more stiction tests.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by workerONE » 08 Oct 2020, 12:57

With a 1000hz mouse would you choose a 240hz or 360z monitor? Is it (1000/360 harmonics) bad enough to shy away from the higher refresh rate?

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 08 Oct 2020, 15:51

yeah I think Razer has done pretty well with this Acari harkening back to the 2012 SOS days. As you said reflection quality matters for optical, in my AM-FG audit (early batch 0234 late 2012) it was obvious that it can achieve pretty insane accuracy considering it's a dated optical from 2012. now in terms of hard pad/hybrids in general, many people are on the look out (buy/sell), it is very likely that Artisan will not be silent forever but this is all god's plan xd.

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