I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8655
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Oct 2020, 19:59

workerONE wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 12:57
With a 1000hz mouse would you choose a 240hz or 360z monitor? Is it (1000/360 harmonics) bad enough to shy away from the higher refresh rate?
If you are using VSYNC OFF, then it’s less of an issue (but still feelable improvement to go 8000Hz)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

User avatar
AddictFPS
Posts: 296
Joined: 15 Jan 2020, 14:13

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by AddictFPS » 08 Oct 2020, 20:26

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 21:55

That above test is moving the line in less than 0.05 pixels at a time per frame! The JavaScript line drawing commands are moving (X,Y) endpoint coordinates in less-than-pixel increments, you see.

I am not talking about THAT kind of "thirds" subpixels.

I'm talking about movements in decimal pixels. Fractions of pixels in an antialiased way. Move 1.27563 pixel this way, 4.3126 pixel thattaway. You see? A 0.5 pixel movement in a FPS shooter is indeed visible if the pixels on your display is big enough to see.
Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Antialiased edges bring great beneficts, here is highligthed the "feel of under pixel smoothed movement", especialy efective when lines are close to horizontal and vertical, where are the most space for AA samples. I see pixels in the same position changing color several times until finally conquest the next vertical pixel, not white color moving at under pixel distances, but fools the eye very well except for the line color uniformity.

The fact of read "moving" is what surprised me, because phisicaly is not possible. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not inform myself well before posting.

With default 1 pixel thinkness, does not keep it all time, line sections change betwhen 1 and 2 thickness, causing more aliasing than should be, and intermitent color uniformity. Is it done on purpose for some reason ? I never see this behavior with Nvidia AA modes, and tested all, including driver hided unsupported modes with Nvidia Inspector.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:08
Can you describe your drift situation?
Is also named "prediction". Here is described, is a way to make straight lines more easy. Very useful for some desktop tasks.

Image

Some people move mouse left-right for desktop tasks almost no moving the elbow and wrist. Hand and mouse draw one circle, at left position aim NW, at right NE, instead of one strict horizontal movement with hand and mouse allways straight aiming north. This feature help to make mouse pointer move left-right with more natural arm movement.

So, Razer with Drift Control is welcome to this market users as well, not only for gaming, where none use this, because they want raw control. I understand why Razer delete it, its a brand focused in gaming. But at the same time is one shame can't fully enjoy modern Razer mouses also for these desktop tasks. Especially after have enjoyed it ;)

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8655
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Oct 2020, 20:38

AddictFPS wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 20:26
So, Razer with Drift Control is welcome to this market users as well, not only for gaming, where none use this, because they want raw control. I understand why Razer delete it, its a brand focused in gaming. But at the same time is one shame can't fully enjoy modern Razer mouses also for these desktop tasks. Especially after have enjoyed it ;)
Oh, THAT kind of drift control. Yeah, I can see why some people like that at the desktop.

I was referring to older optical mice that sometimes drifted cursor around the screen even though the mouse was stationary -- likely due to older sensors, older algorithms, "video noise" in the mouse sensor (low resolution camera).
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

lyrill
Posts: 67
Joined: 06 Oct 2020, 10:37

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 09 Oct 2020, 09:56

AddictFPS wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 20:26
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 21:55

That above test is moving the line in less than 0.05 pixels at a time per frame! The JavaScript line drawing commands are moving (X,Y) endpoint coordinates in less-than-pixel increments, you see.

I am not talking about THAT kind of "thirds" subpixels.

I'm talking about movements in decimal pixels. Fractions of pixels in an antialiased way. Move 1.27563 pixel this way, 4.3126 pixel thattaway. You see? A 0.5 pixel movement in a FPS shooter is indeed visible if the pixels on your display is big enough to see.
Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Antialiased edges bring great beneficts, here is highligthed the "feel of under pixel smoothed movement", especialy efective when lines are close to horizontal and vertical, where are the most space for AA samples. I see pixels in the same position changing color several times until finally conquest the next vertical pixel, not white color moving at under pixel distances, but fools the eye very well except for the line color uniformity.

The fact of read "moving" is what surprised me, because phisicaly is not possible. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not inform myself well before posting.

With default 1 pixel thinkness, does not keep it all time, line sections change betwhen 1 and 2 thickness, causing more aliasing than should be, and intermitent color uniformity. Is it done on purpose for some reason ? I never see this behavior with Nvidia AA modes, and tested all, including driver hided unsupported modes with Nvidia Inspector.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:08
Can you describe your drift situation?
Is also named "prediction". Here is described, is a way to make straight lines more easy. Very useful for some desktop tasks.

Image

Some people move mouse left-right for desktop tasks almost no moving the elbow and wrist. Hand and mouse draw one circle, at left position aim NW, at right NE, instead of one strict horizontal movement with hand and mouse allways straight aiming north. This feature help to make mouse pointer move left-right with more natural arm movement.

So, Razer with Drift Control is welcome to this market users as well, not only for gaming, where none use this, because they want raw control. I understand why Razer delete it, its a brand focused in gaming. But at the same time is one shame can't fully enjoy modern Razer mouses also for these desktop tasks. Especially after have enjoyed it ;)
that's just linear interpolation/linear smoothing/linear correction...like the most basic hated aspect of the olden days. but yes i almost forgot that they offer multiple steps instead of just ON/OFF. and yes obviously for productivity purposes just kinda like acceleration even though as I was about to say people like cloth pad for traditionally giving faster X axis for cs/whatever fps that strafe a lot (including a lack of skill in strafing regardless of this aspect to then have people side stepping instead of actually purely fine aiming at all as said by Chief) because it's easier to manufacture-----you just stitch the weave longer/smoother on x axis then tighter/rougher/more pertruded on Y to give more general stiction/friction/drag on your average teflon skate solution (shape/etc), that's basically linear correction in a "soft" (pun intended) way. This is not to say you can't make hard pad like that too, in fact you look at skates finish a lot of fps oriented mouse have brushed accent on x axis instead of y, and of course brushed aluminum pads can be a thing vs smudged up anodized

of course they used other fancy "bespoke" names for other stuff like deceleration and all that jazz, dpi interpolation was named overclock? or whatever it was on sensei/sensei mlg.

point is these were interesting features that were for a more open minded age so to speak, people then started all kinds of circlejk then they were just all gone. it's not like Steelseries wasn't ever as much of a gaming company as Razer, hell these are the only 2 companies that insist on claiming whatever models they had was the first ever XXX in YYY category.

edit: i just checked for lolz, their "exact XXX" names were completely stupid they totally needed to get rid of those haha.

Except for ExactAim, that's basically smoothing I think, also it's interesting to recall that the Xai was exactly maxed at 5000cpi (or rather 5001, for arbitrary reason) , the same top dpi that the Sensei Ten 10 years later can achieve zero smoothing at (or rather, 4950 cus 50 steps instead of 1 and they skipped the last step lol) all the while though the avago 9500 can do 5600/5700 like on g500. (although obviously that sensor was pretty garbage on top dpi they prolly just regarded those last bits as frivolity)

Also it's very interesting to see that they kinda showcase it as Circular Interpolation, when in fact that no game is just you drawing perfect circles, so it only eliminates micro scale jitter in terms of making things as "circular" as possible, the macro scale shape is still dependent on your actual skill to keep to a shape your mind wanted/you are supposed to draw lol.

There is a tradition also, worth nothing that there's a focus(not a monopoly in any means but certainly a strong focus) on debuting top sensors on ambi shape since people love that they can jam in as much "symmetrical beauty" in their motion even though the PCMR input is as a whole never really ambidextrous, like you would a dual wielding zeolot/barbarian/freaking Arthur Dayne.

Alpha
Posts: 98
Joined: 09 Jul 2020, 17:58

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Alpha » 09 Oct 2020, 12:23

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 20:38
Chief
Do you have an ETA on the article for this mouse\8000hz polling and all that? While I am asking, any ETA on the PG259QN review?

I need you too understand how much it's taken to wait this long to ask. I stopped sleeping man. :lol:

Seriously though, hyped for these articles and appreciate your hard work, patience, and as always extremely knowledgeable expertise.

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8655
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Oct 2020, 12:30

Alpha wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 12:23
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 20:38
Chief
Do you have an ETA on the article for this mouse\8000hz polling and all that? While I am asking, any ETA on the PG259QN review?

I need you too understand how much it's taken to wait this long to ask. I stopped sleeping man. :lol:

Seriously though, hyped for these articles and appreciate your hard work, patience, and as always extremely knowledgeable expertise.
Blur Busters specializes in "special edition" reviews such as G-SYNC 101. We let other reviewers use our inventions www.blurbusters.com/inventions to do the mainstream reviewing -- don't want to compete with the users of Blur Busters inventions...

My article is one of those Special Edition pieces being created under "Valve Time" (no ETA :D ...) but I'm expecting to throw it out into the open by the end of the month. (It absolutely has to -- since there's other stuff scheduled)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Alpha
Posts: 98
Joined: 09 Jul 2020, 17:58

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Alpha » 09 Oct 2020, 12:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 12:30
Alpha wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 12:23
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 20:38
Chief
Do you have an ETA on the article for this mouse\8000hz polling and all that? While I am asking, any ETA on the PG259QN review?

I need you too understand how much it's taken to wait this long to ask. I stopped sleeping man. :lol:

Seriously though, hyped for these articles and appreciate your hard work, patience, and as always extremely knowledgeable expertise.
Blur Busters specializes in "special edition" reviews such as G-SYNC 101. We let other reviewers use our inventions www.blurbusters.com/inventions to do the mainstream reviewing -- don't want to compete with the users of Blur Busters inventions...

My article is one of those Special Edition pieces being created under "Valve Time" (no ETA :D ...) but I'm expecting to throw it out into the open by the end of the month. (It absolutely has to -- since there's other stuff scheduled)
lmao Valve Time = almost announced haha! Looking forward too it though. Lots to look forward too this month.

rasmas
Posts: 146
Joined: 03 Jan 2018, 15:25

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by rasmas » 10 Oct 2020, 08:53

Could anyone, please, explain me the differences between high polling rate and high DPI (with low ingame sensitivity)? I'm not sure if i understand correctly what each does.

Also, would it be possible to make mice use its high-max DPI but somehow make that the games and software feels it like being at low DPI, BUT without lowering in-software sensitivity? (i.e. by the mice software somehow) That way you could have the best of high DPI but not having to deal with further adjustments per game-software.

User avatar
RealNC
Site Admin
Posts: 3103
Joined: 24 Dec 2013, 18:32
Contact:

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by RealNC » 10 Oct 2020, 09:19

rasmas wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 08:53
Could anyone, please, explain me the differences between high polling rate and high DPI (with low ingame sensitivity)? I'm not sure if i understand correctly what each does.
Polling rate is the delay at which mouse input gets registered by the OS. DPI is the resolution at which the mouse itself tracks movement, in other words, it's the mouse's accuracy.

Higher polling rate: Lower latency.
Higher DPI: Higher accuracy.

Keep in mind that most mice have certain DPI values that are considered "native". They only fake higher DPI settings, so using those does not actually increase accuracy, it just makes it easier to use the mouse in 4K and especially 8K displays.
SteamGitHubStack OverflowTwitter
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.

rasmas
Posts: 146
Joined: 03 Jan 2018, 15:25

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by rasmas » 10 Oct 2020, 10:12

RealNC wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 09:19
...
Polling rate is the delay at which mouse input gets registered by the OS. DPI is the resolution at which the mouse itself tracks movement, in other words, it's the mouse's accuracy.

Higher polling rate: Lower latency.
Higher DPI: Higher accuracy.

Keep in mind that most mice have certain DPI values that are considered "native". They only fake higher DPI settings, so using those does not actually increase accuracy, it just makes it easier to use the mouse in 4K and especially 8K displays.
By "input" am i right if i consider mouse movement too? in other words, does it mean that the number of times the mouse "reports" to the OS is higher? If so, high polling rate would make it more accurate too as it will report more often any change of position, right? We could say that higher DPI would "fine tune" that position as DPI is responsible to give real-accurate position?
(sorry if too dumb or totally wrong questions :D )

Thanks for the answer anyway ;) .

Post Reply