I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 18 Dec 2020, 04:35

Boop wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 22:30
Time to spill the beans :mrgreen:
Some very early impressions:
  • Increased responsiveness & smoothness is very noticeable to me
  • Significantly greater motion clarity & improved tracking
  • Easier to make fine & precise aim adjustments
  • Noticeable on both my PG259QN @366Hz & 27GN950-B @160Hz
  • Noticeable improvement even with relatively low FPS (~60) playing Cyberpunk2077 @ 4k, RT Ultra, DLSS Quality, all settings High except Ambient Occlusion -> Med
  • Even more responsive when I lower IMOD value to something like 25 or 5 us
  • Focus+ sensor feels great & has similar feeling to my Viper Ultimate
  • No compatibility issues thus far (played Apex Legends & CP2077)
In other words, so far I can highly recommend the upgrade to Focus+ & 8kHz.

Obviously the improvement effects should be more noticeable with an optimized, high-end rig but seeing the improved motion clarity even with lower FPS in Cyberpunk2077 leads me to believe that there are still significant benefits to be had with lower-end systems assuming the user is sensitive enough to discern the difference.

I think one of the major factors is having the system optimized for low latency to maximize benefit of the 8kHz mouse even with mid-tier or lower HW specs.

Bobo
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Bobo » 18 Dec 2020, 05:02

@howiec what tweaks have you done to your system ?

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kurtextrem
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by kurtextrem » 18 Dec 2020, 05:08

Pretty sure the 3399 is called Focus+ and is already in the RVU, DAv2 etc.; Or is it a new revision specifically for 8000 hz?
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axaro1
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 18 Dec 2020, 05:36

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
17 Dec 2020, 21:25
What's the estimated release date? Q2 2021?
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howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 18 Dec 2020, 08:50

Bobo wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 05:02
@howiec what tweaks have you done to your system ?
Off-the-top-of-my-head (note this list is NOT complete & will be missing various details/caveats):

1st - Maximize HW performance & minimize latency:
  • Establish max OC to fixed all-core frequency ideally w/ 0 AVX offset
  • Disable all power saving & frequency changing features, e.g. C-states, Speed Shift, PCIe ASPM
  • Disable all unnecessary/unused on-board devices/features in BIOS
  • Minimize RAM timings
  • Verify PCIe mode/speed settings
  • OC GPU (I prefer fixed frequencies)
  • Disable HT/SMT (tradeoff)
2nd - OS optimization (beginner/basic):
  • Disable Core Parking & Frequency Scaling
  • Set timer resolution to 0.5ms
  • Enable MSInterrupts for all possible devices & set priorities as appropriate
  • Manually assign CPU affinities for both processes & device interrupts
  • BCD - disabledynamictick yes, useplatformclock no/deleted, useplatformtick yes, tscsyncpolicy enh
  • Edit Power Plan to maximize performance
  • Edit MMCSS priorities as appropriate
  • Use TCP Optimizer to minimize latency - e.g. disable Nagle's algorithm
  • Disable (different than just stopping) as many Windows/program services as you are comfortable with doing (tradeoff is functionality)
  • Disable background apps
  • Disable as many devices in Device Manager as possible (be very careful here)
3rd - Driver/device-specific:
  • Optimize network card driver settings, e.g. disable interrupt moderation & jumbo packets
  • Use NV Profile Inspector to optimize various settings per game
  • Adjust xHCI interrupt moderation
  • Minimize audio pipeline buffers & set appropriate bit & sample rates
4th - Game-specific:
  • Use in-game FPS cap if possible vs external like RTSS
  • Disable FSO & DPI scaling
  • Various game engine tweaks for low latency
Last edited by howiec on 18 Dec 2020, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 18 Dec 2020, 09:07

kurtextrem wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 05:08
Pretty sure the 3399 is called Focus+ and is already in the RVU, DAv2 etc.; Or is it a new revision specifically for 8000 hz?
Yeah, I know the RVU also lists Focus+ sensor (presumably the same 3399 silicon in this prototype).

However, I wrote "Focus+ & 8kHz" together because each individually has shown improved performance in my testing, so those upgrading from a standard 3389 1kHz mouse to a Focus+ 8kHz mouse would see the largest improvements vs upgrading to say just a standard 3389 8kHz mouse.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 18 Dec 2020, 11:16

Nice stuff!

Consistent with my observations, of course.

And you've definitely noticed that 360Hz is clearly showing limits of 1000Hz mice. 240Hz-vs-360Hz becomes almost worthless with old-fashioned 1000Hz gaming mice. The refresh rate race to retina refresh rates are now bottlenecked by low mouse poll rates!!

Have you found that some games perform better at ~2000-4000Hz poll? It's a good compromise. This is likely a more user-friendly modification than system optimizing for 8000 Hz for many newer users. There's so many optimization weak links in a system that can really bog a system, and the average layperson won't be able to figure out. Power users will want to optimize to milk all 8000 Hz where possible, but the sweet spot can sometimes be 2000 Hz or 4000 Hz.

I had to do this because 8000Hz was flooding certain games too much. You've actually done more system optimizations than I have -- probably because my systems rapidly get too crud-filled (from Blur Busters work, etc!) and loses a lot of optimizations.

I will need to do a fresh reinstall of Windows (yet again) on one of the systems, and I've already noticed further improvements when using a USB PCIe card giving the 8KHz a dedicated USB chip + dedicated PCIe lane. But that's because I have lots of USB devices, which can vie for contention on the internal USB hubs.

howiec, mind if I split this into its own specific thread, because this is lost in a long thread that should ideally deserve its own thread.

P.S. One minor thing; Nagle's algorithm really only has an effect with games that uses TCP for networking, although it may improve other apps on especially on gigabit connections. It has not effect on, say, CS:GO which doesn't use TCP for network gaming.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Brainlet » 18 Dec 2020, 11:23

Regarding NIC Interrupt Moderation Rate, here are some interesting findings: https://github.com/djdallmann/GamingPCS ... /README.md
Starting point for beginners: PC Optimization Hub

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 18 Dec 2020, 13:43

howiec wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 09:07
kurtextrem wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 05:08
Pretty sure the 3399 is called Focus+ and is already in the RVU, DAv2 etc.; Or is it a new revision specifically for 8000 hz?
Yeah, I know the RVU also lists Focus+ sensor (presumably the same 3399 silicon in this prototype).

However, I wrote "Focus+ & 8kHz" together because each individually has shown improved performance in my testing, so those upgrading from a standard 3389 1kHz mouse to a Focus+ 8kHz mouse would see the largest improvements vs upgrading to say just a standard 3389 8kHz mouse.
I mean EGG is already enlisting 3370, pretty sure nobody would do 8khz with 3389.

howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 18 Dec 2020, 14:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 11:16
Have you found that some games perform better at ~2000-4000Hz poll?
I haven't tested lower polling rates but will report back after doing so.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 11:16
howiec, mind if I split this into its own specific thread, because this is lost in a long thread that should ideally deserve its own thread.
Don't mind at all.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
18 Dec 2020, 11:16
P.S. One minor thing; Nagle's algorithm really only has an effect with games that uses TCP for networking, although it may improve other apps on especially on gigabit connections. It has not effect on, say, CS:GO which doesn't use TCP for network gaming.
Yeah, as I'm sure you know, most modern games use UDP for latency-sensitive data anyways.

I've just kept it disabled since the old World of Warcraft days when it cut latency down a ton (something crazy like going from 120 to 50 ms) but it seems Blizzard finally caught on and added an "Optimize Network for Speed" option in the game settings.

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