I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Jan 2021, 16:34

lyrill wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 16:00
it's like do you want a new Eminem album or "best of" "remixes" "the greatest". I'm like the only guy that cares about that, and how sad Razer market head tossed me like a chewed up bone and tech head doesn't take my side which is righteous.
lyrill wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 16:00
it is because of my continued reasoned claim against the generic design schemes that the 4 year long legacy of a more refined and cohesive shape that is Basilisk line that it was last still weighted in as "there is no new shape yet but there will be"
The rapper is not the same thing as manufacturing. Also, it's not a remix; it's a brand new sensor not used in the earlier Viper.

The retail mouse isn't necessarily a Viper design, it hasn't even been unveiled yet! Probably unveiled soon, given Virtual Online CES 2021 is around the corner. Razer already told media that the Viper chassis is currently for testing purposes, which is a clear unmistakeable signal of common prototype manufacturing. (If you still want to use that metaphor, imagine a remix disc that is half full of the best, most amazing, most revolutionary tracks from the singer's future unreleased album, but released first in a remix before the full complete original album.)

GPU Prototype Example... Also, I've seen the GPU vendors test their next-generation GPUs in boring designs and older reference designs in hidden prototype tests with private testers -- before, before making a big splash/announcement that it's actually a new GPU. Same for some CPUs as well as other techologies that are stealthily tested in embargo before announced.

Console Prototype Example... Did you know both Microsoft and Sony shipped their beta PlayStations and XBoxes in weird-looking generic boxes? Razer is doing no different. PHOTO PROOF <--- CLICK. Even more generic/ugly than reusing an existing (great) model! Besides, the original Viper introduced great optical mouse buttons, which is preserved in the new-sensor 8KHz version. That's a compliment beyond those ugly beta developer consoles. They also preannounced the developer kits before they had final designs too.

Automobile Car Example... And did you see that automakers often do something similar, testing new engine changes in an existing chassis (unless they want to use zebra camo, EXAMPLE1, EXAMPLE2 ... they actually wrap some prorotype cars in crazy camo, or sometimes recycle last year's body panels, to hide the fact they're new models, design changes, or breakthroughs), before putting it in the new year model car? Did you know they put fake tailpipes and engine noises in some prototype electric vehicles? (Ford did that fake tailpipe thing for their secret electric F150 prototypes before they announced it). Do you read/subscribe to automobile magazines whose reporters spies on those boring boilerplate cars hiding breakthrough new engines? They've been doing that for a century, and still do as of 2020, whether be Honda, Tesla, etc. They may preannounce say, an engine or battery breakthrough long before they unveil the design, as an example.

(There's thousands of examples of breakthroughs-hidden-in-generics in manufacturing. I can go on on non-computer-industry related stuff, too)

(Other mouse vendors do it too.)

The Viper form factor is a tried-and-true design, so you can compare 1KHz Viper and 8KHz Viper, and still tell the difference.

I have both mice here (1Khz and 8KHz) for versus testing of poll rate, and it's part of my upcoming (delayed) article. One exacerbating factor was motherboard failure last month, which delayed things to after the Holidays (apologies).

Lest I be blamed by readers as Razer-specific -- they just were merely generous to be the first to send the 8KHz and they're naturally getting the first-come-first-test -- which I am gladly doing -- sure, there is cred/karma win that goes with that. Certainly a legitimate reward for having sent the mouse. But fundamentally, I welcome all mouse vendors to send/do their innovative stuff (8KHz mouse, HD Mouse API compliant mouse, or whatever mouse innovations helping the refresh rate race). The combo of 8KHz poll + optical buttons is a killer combo, regardless of what chassis it is in.

Your rapper-equivalence metaphor is just manufacturing a classic manufacturing-standard diss out of thin air. Not even computer related at all!

If you want to criticize the World Standard Of All Manufacturing, suuuure a potentially legitimate criticism of general manufacturing keeping some things under wraps. But singling out mouse with an unannounced design? Really?

When criticizing a retail design, let's wait till they announce the real retail thing. Then it's open season for mouse equivalent of
oversized console memes. But there is no publicly announced retail design yet!
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 07 Jan 2021, 17:02

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 16:34
[...]
Again they can afford to send mass copies of any model at all or do deep discounts because they cater to the Viper line of niche on the market which someone blew too big for me to stomach, but I guess that's why Min is CEO and I am just a 2 bit expendable fanboi/loser.

If the Viper is basilisk popularity I would certainly not berate it as much, but then that was clearly not to be, so it's out of my hands. I don't need to open an unknown box of which me or others might not like what they find, but if everyone is allowed the luxury of expression, I am too.

I don't know how or what else you want me to say because even as I am still allowed to speak here there is still basically radio silence from Razer on the most important issue they admit themselves, both of them "shape is king", and in those context it was actually arbitrary too. It's like justifying Viper and Deathadder, like if we are talking pure design, no sales, then those are again, clearly inferior and dated. If I was Min, from a design perspective, there's no reason to keep those. For as much as I had followed Razer in the past, all things point to them not being brave enough to push the Basilisk line as much as it deserves, and beyond to said new models, which I am aware isn't out yet, which has nothing to do with my patience or lack of, whether I urge them in anyway or not. in other words, I was never fundamentally wrong and I certainly still ain't. The vibe on those places that later turned sour used to be a lot more open and diversed, people were free to talk about their opinions as equals without having to be put on a pedigree. It only took one entitled guy like RJN and one greedy brand like Finalmouse to stain it all for good.

and maybe eventually, it is better if slower dad-games like pubg should have never been made outside of its mod origin, maybe it's better that way, maybe the market is always right. Then I wouldn't get people telling me that his VPU is godtier and my basilisk ultimate, last time thanks to theFiend, is hot garbage for casuls who don't play a "real fps".

or maybe, we should all listen to those who say 1khz is all that's needed. that humans don't see or need past 200hz. that they'd rather play 4k 8k console games on acceptable fps than play pvp without even any story to tell (even if it's your authority, or is it even?)

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Jan 2021, 18:00

lyrill wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 17:02
or maybe, we should all listen to those who say 1khz is all that's needed. that humans don't see or need past 200hz.
Like Grandma couldn't tell what the big deal with VHS versus DVD versus HD was.

But now in Canada, 720p TVs are harder to buy than cheap 4K TVs at the local Walmart or Best Buy.

And we witness the cheap mainstreaming of 120Hz (Samsung now has it standard, Apple is about to make it standard next year, most new TVs now support 120Hz, both Sony/XBox consoles now have 120Hz, and even DELL/HP is considering adding 120Hz to ordinary office monitors later this decade). This hands the baton of ever higher refresh rates to the higher end. Even 240Hz will be mainstream (free) eventually this century in humankind.

Tech progress clearly continues. The mousefeel of 8KHz becomes increasingly visible once you surpass 240Hz and into 360Hz.

By sometime during the 2030s decade when 480Hz is a low-end esports display and 1000Hz is a high-end esports display, all 1000Hz mice clearly feels inferior since poll rates need to be several times above display refresh rates -- otherwise mousefeel degrades more and more -- as the ratio of pollrate:refreshrate shrinks (increasing visibility of problems to more and more average users).

So the marketability of 8KHz will only improve to lower and visible to increasing numbers of lower end users as the decade or two goes out. Consequently, every major brand of gaming mouse probably standardize at 8KHz ability by the end of this decade. Bet on it. That said, Razer clearly is among the firstmovers for 8000.

After all, 1000Hz gaming mice served us well for 15 years. It's high time to raise the limit from 1000Hz synchronous. Whether 8KHz or asynchronous or other method of improved sensortime:photontime precision.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 07 Jan 2021, 21:09

Speaking of innovation, could you imagine gaming in the future with something similar to the following (which is not all that unrealistic)?
  • 128kHz+ polling for all forms of input
  • 8kHz+ refresh rates + fast pixel response times
  • Dedicated resources to isolate input system for consistent & optimized performance
  • Something along the lines of HD Mouse/input API
It's just a matter of who wants to do it, setting a standard, and driving other tech to catch up or do even better.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 07 Jan 2021, 21:31

howiec wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 21:09
128kHz+ polling for all forms of input
The 8KHz display refresh rate could be viable later this century, especially with new GPU pipelining architectures (Frame Rate Amplification Tech), but I think synchronous mouse polling may become obsolete. We're a long way from it though, and possibly not even in my lifetime, but even 8KHz is still below retina refresh rate for some types of use cases. However, 1KHz display refresh rates are indeed going to happen by the end of this decade.

Yes, even 8KHz display refresh rate (over 20x higher than a 360Hz) is still just slightly less than retina refresh rate for blurless sample-and-hold but that's mainly for ultra-wide-FOV retina-displays (e.g. future VR displays).

However, for mice -- a new architecture other than polling may be practical, see my recent self-reply to HD Mouse API thread that covers such a theoretical concept for possible inclusion in HD Mouse API.

That said, I believe 128KHz mouse sensors are eventually realistic though -- but instead of polling -- thanks to HD Mouse API concepts, I think the world would go with asynchronous timestamped polls that only need to be read once per frametime, with only 1/128,000sec difference between sensortime:gametime aliasing/jitter.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 09 Jan 2021, 18:14

howiec wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 21:09
Speaking of innovation, could you imagine gaming in the future with something similar to the following (which is not all that unrealistic)?
  • 128kHz+ polling for all forms of input
  • 8kHz+ refresh rates + fast pixel response times
  • Dedicated resources to isolate input system for consistent & optimized performance
  • Something along the lines of HD Mouse/input API
It's just a matter of who wants to do it, setting a standard, and driving other tech to catch up or do even better.
i've also requested Input Club and Wooting, and all the major switch OEMs to make a 0.5mm end travel 0.1-0.5mm actuation (because apex pro) switch that has half the actuation force at end travel, but a progressive spring curve to eliminate misclick near the actual actuation points, reduce bottoming out sudden strain and noise, and ALSO provide a supple feel that allow you to prep actuation with any button AND drift two button with one finger without extra strain, ALL on top of making actuation as fast as possible. This is a lot more important than pushing 4khz with stupid generic 1mm actuation, and a lot lot more important than pushing "stability" from those stupid DIY community paying thousands of dollars for a stupid custom case and obsessively heavy springs with digressive curves for typing threads to show off said cases and clicky/tactile switches (lol) that are garbage for gaming. Of course a side effect to stability is always less rattle noise and I'm all for that, and I am glad to see people still care to reduce bottoming out sounds on any switch, but that's not enough.

got lukewarm response obviously cus steelseries being downtrodden for over a year by god knows who. Please help me spread the awareness. Anyone not haven read the entire thread plz revisit previous discussions about keyboard vs mouse high hz compatibility issues.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 09 Jan 2021, 22:16

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 21:31
[...]but I think synchronous mouse polling may become obsolete. We're a long way from it though, and possibly not even in my lifetime, but even 8KHz is still below retina refresh rate for some types of use cases.
Absolutely. I semi-arbitrarily picked 8kHz because it's roughly an order of magnitude higher than what we have today, and I like the number 8. :)

Yes, there should be quite a few ways to reduce interrupt/polling related overhead and jitter, such as with your timestamp recommendation. Dedicated/optimized circuitry to offload some of this processing from the CPU which can also be accessed by the HD Mouse/Input API would also obviously be a major benefit as input sampling frequencies increase.

Hope some engineers/scientists in relevant industries take note!

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 10 Jan 2021, 04:21

Image
Although I don't agree with the claim that 8khz is not necessarily going to be better than new generation sensors it's nice to see that the sensor market stopped stagnating now that sensors such as the 3399, 3370 and Hero 25k are on the market.

Some comparison between the 3370, 3389 and 3360.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 10 Jan 2021, 04:26

axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 04:21
Image
Although I don't agree with the claim that 8khz is not necessarily going to be better than new generation sensors it's nice to see that the sensor market stopped stagnating now that sensors such as the 3399, 3370 and Hero 25k are on the market.

Some comparison between the 3370, 3389 and 3360.
Image
all old info. someone need to test 3399 hero 25k tmp vs 3370. maybe wait when tmp+ comes out, if it actually does.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by MaxTendency » 10 Jan 2021, 04:59

axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 04:21
Some comparison between the 3370, 3389 and 3360.
That chart is kinda sloppy. Whoever made it looked at the highest number without even looking at the units.

Image

They looked at 61 and put 61mA in there when in reality it was 61uA for rest2 stage. Highest power draw on the 3360 according to the specs is 37mA.

Also has anyone commented on what "error rate" means? From what I can tell, it might just be cpi deviation.
ashsii 08/04/2020
Ok I've done a bit of more research on what this 1% or 0.5% means
The datasheet specifically says "resolution error"
PMW3389 & PMW3360 have 1% resolution error. cpi is the resolution
So I guess at 5000 CPI, your mouse might be around 50 CPI off

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