I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

[lyrill]

This "battlenonsense" and many other KOLs basically aren't very versed in all this basic gaming mice detail yet they think they deserve a bigger voice and sway...smh

What specifically you mean by that? At what point in the video do you think he gave uninformed advice?

that's just it, he evaded being branded as uninformed, because most people aren't, he can get away with it. please don't ignore what I literally just said about 3389 etc.

[howiec]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwf_F2VboFQ

While I praise Chris's efforts in trying to eliminate variables and produce consistent results, the movement and smoothness test he did doesn't show the full picture.

Moving the mouse in just a straight line and only at a low speed obviously minimizes the smoothness improvement.

I notice much smoother motion overall, and improved perceived motion clarity in many cases such as flicks, rapid tracking adjustments, tracking with verticality (y-axis too), etc.

There is also a difference between what the 500fps camera sees and what a human sees (perception).

[kurtextrem]

phpBB [video]

It was interesting to see the motion latency was significantly lower-variance at 3200DPI vs 1600DPI.
However, PMW3389 has (more) smoothing above 2000DPI, so maybe not worth it.

While this is relevant information for other mice, it is not for the Viper 8k. The Viper 8k uses the 3399 (Focus+) and as TheFiend stated in this very thread, does not have smoothing across the entire range (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7569&p=61824&hilit ... ing#p61816)

[axaro1]

There is also a difference between what the 500fps camera sees and what a human sees (perception).

This is true but in the case of testing microstutters at different polling rates, which is the only test where the camera was used, using a 500fps camera to look at a 360hz monitor is plenty to understand if there is microstutters since you'll be able to see each stutter that happens basically once every 3 refreshes with 125hz polling rate on his PG259QN.

Something that a static 500fps camera can record but doesn't translate into what the human eye perceive is motion clarity since it can asynchronously record different stages of pixel transition for each refresh.

Recording at 500fps on a 360hz monitor, assuming that both refresh/recording have the same starting point will respectively record:
77% of the 1st transition
50% of the 2nd transition
25% of the 3rd transition
1% of the 4th transition
76% of the 5th transition and so on

[lyrill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwf_F2VboFQ

While I praise Chris's efforts in trying to eliminate variables and produce consistent results, the movement and smoothness test he did doesn't show the full picture.

Moving the mouse in just a straight line and only at a low speed obviously minimizes the smoothness improvement.

I notice much smoother motion overall, and improved perceived motion clarity in many cases such as flicks, rapid tracking adjustments, tracking with verticality (y-axis too), etc.

There is also a difference between what the 500fps camera sees and what a human sees (perception).

I didn't really look at exactly how he set up tests since I'm not familiar with test methods anyways and every time LTT explained it it was already confusing instead of affirming. We certainly need more attention and testing and data, but it is more important there be tools readily available for everyone to intuitively audit how good a gear is, in or out of games they are good at, especially for things like this that other people would call placebo on. Latency is also just not the primary focus and it seems like he highlights that so more people are interested, but the whole point about this high hz is to match high dpi and thus edpi, and of course future monitor and gpu that runs 2k/4k at 300hz+

[howiec]

This is true but in the case of testing microstutters at different polling rates, which is the only test where the camera was used, using a 500fps camera to look at a 360hz monitor is plenty to understand if there is microstutters since you'll be able to see each stutter that happens basically once every 3 refreshes with 125hz polling rate on his PG259QN.

That's another the thing that I didn't really want to dive into because I haven't done video capture analysis myself. However, I would venture to say that 500fps is not enough to get a superb analysis although maybe sufficient for some obvious stutters.

Whenever you have frequencies involved, think Nyquist theorem for aliasing effects and multiples for stroboscopic effects. The bare minimum recording fps I would aim at is 1000Hz (or 720Hz if we're going to say we're limited by the monitor) as I believe he said the game was capped at 500fps.

Regardless, 500fps is likely too low for this analysis to show the entire picture including accurate motion blur comparisons unless he got lucky with various setttings.

[lyrill]

i gotta report that this so called bug only happen/doesn't happen unless you leave your motherboard/pc power switch on, which is a bad habit anyways. and even then un+replugging a simple usb plug is so ez compared to what I had to deal with on the gwolves sks where one of the engineers sent a semi late test sample to me without informing me the firmware install process and let other trolls in their group lead me astray to install dated software and bugged my internet out for a week not to mention other bugs on the mouse that couldn't be fixed no matter how many replugs, way way more infuriating. I also have a #121 batch no. Schiit modi og, which had developed driverless detection issues since like 2015 and Jason Stoddard had stopped answering my emails. I basically count the stars for luck and half the time I correctly reopen my pc for the next day, it waits anywhere from 1 minute to 10 hours to detect and I gotta instead use my super beefed out og lyr stack without gain switch for my reference class earphones I prefer over head clamping headphones for 10 years.

[masneb]

I actually pulled the trigger on this the other day and came to this thread as something felt slightly off compared to my Logitech G Pro (Hero 20k version). Not a huge fan of big mice, so would've rather had a mini, but the way it feels sometimes feels inconsistent. I also think that games don't always know what to do with the inputs when they come in too fast and may stutter or just drop them all together. I'm not entirely sure what it is. The mouse itself definitely feels much more responsive then at 1000hz. I generally play high DPI and high sensitivity, that niche in and of itself is very difficult to fulfill.

Over the years trying to look for different mice you'll find out a lot of mice aren't tested for higher DPI usage and will start jittering, jumping, stuttering, spasming, or otherwise freaking out at higher DPI levels making it almost completely unusable. There are only a handful of mice that don't do this and I'm not talking about a lack of interpolation to smooth things out. So even if the mouse has 8khz polling, that doesn't necessarily mean the sensor data will be good in and of itself.

Ideally everyone should be using the highest DPI available to their mouse and turning down in game sensitivity to their preferred levels. I would actually say the reason the recommendations are stuck on 400 or 800 DPI, putting aside Intelimouse roots, is specifically because sensors start getting really wonky when you turn them up, depending on the mouse, sensor, and firmware on that mouse. Higher DPI is generally a better reflection of your own personal aim - which is a good thing. To that end it's surprising we aren't seeing mice appear with multiple sensors to give even more accurate information reads, especially during liftoff. There are some exceptions to this, but for the most part almost all mice are single sensor.

Over the years I also used a Steelseries mouse and would agree with some of the other posters here, Steelseries gives you a lot of control over some more subjective options, like angle snapping that should be up to the user to determine.

This thread in general is a pretty good information trove of snake oil, some good, but a lot of it to take with a grain of salt. That's not a bad thing.

[lyrill]

Copy pasta slightly edited from r/razer for visibility. Read this Razer guys and everyone.

optical sensor defect of high lod is still not fixed. If anything it was never more optimized and customizable on that regard vs laser. only takes trying anything high dpi and actually real world lifting up touching down to realize that every 1k more dpi from the pleb tier 400 800dpi the screenshakes and cursor rattling would double if not quadruple (in pixel counts duh).

You wouldn't have a definitive say in this if you don't play MMG type campy playstyles in titles like BFV and with a well chosen choke spot/vantage point can single handedly wipe 2 squads within 5-10 seconds depending on range, where there's so much static time and so much distant dynamic things happening that any kind of mouse strain relief and re centering would disconnect/lose focus of all your high strain high intensity high density human powered screen scanning/target seeking, and is ever more a luxury thanks to the kind of forced minimum 0.3-0.4mm "spec" lod (stacking not advised due sensor malfunctioning) which translates to 5-10 pixels of fluctuation at the very least in real world scenario( i was using 2300-3200-5000 6/11, now with 2/11 20kdpi aka 1250 edpi in system/game menu as I noticed 3/11 aka 5000 edpi with 20k dpi is high enough to start to have acceleration related to the jitter previously observed apparent at 6/11 20k which I had berated and evalued unfairly against 3399 for the past 2 years so now I find myself in a situation that an apology is in order, since there is a way to correctly use 20k dpi on 3399 which basically is limited to 2/11 and then something slightly higher/versatile in game for edpi, but 3399 is still not a perfect true 20k dpi obviously, so stay reasonably below 3/11 20k for in game effective dpi), (oh and btw thanks Zowie for claiming that 1.8mm is low enough, and thanks Steelseries for selling qck generic cloth for a decade and on so everyone and their mother is still faced with a motherload of cloth choices) and that's 10-20 minimum pixels of screen edges swinging around. And considering that MMG players would definitely max FOV, that's a much bigger FOV jitter than the center of the screen which leads to discomfort regardless of the aforementioned whole screen's game info being shaken and blurred.

Latency talks and monitor hz related discoveries are important, but please don't forget that there are people who used and got used to Razer and others' pln/avago equipped stuff which for the past 2 years I have reaffirmed about them having spec 0.1mm lod and in actuality felt lower than da13, and there are people who used those sweet 5600/5700 dpi back when there isn't suddenly a retro newwave fps titles for the past 5+ years and such people prefer slower more methodical games even if it is a shooter, and in these cases, a super low LOD paired with a flat as possible hard pad is at the central focal point of the game---because the less you potentially rely on lifting in general, the more important it is that it isn't intrusive. it would be nice that we are instead already using tech architecture that has lower lod the higher dpi you go, but you aren't are you, nobody is using that kind of tech since the dawn of optical sensors on mice. i've envisioned enough for you as probably the most diehard enthusiast on all these core and ignored issues, so your move Razer.

P.S still waiting for that next true be all slay all shape if Vaxee/EndgameGear/Steelseries/etc fail to deliver.

[hkngo007]

i gotta report that this so called bug only happen/doesn't happen unless you leave your motherboard/pc power switch on, which is a bad habit anyways. and even then un+replugging a simple usb plug is so ez compared to what I had to deal with on the gwolves sks where one of the engineers sent a semi late test sample to me without informing me the firmware install process and let other trolls in their group lead me astray to install dated software and bugged my internet out for a week not to mention other bugs on the mouse that couldn't be fixed no matter how many replugs, way way more infuriating. I also have a #121 batch no. Schiit modi og, which had developed driverless detection issues since like 2015 and Jason Stoddard had stopped answering my emails. I basically count the stars for luck and half the time I correctly reopen my pc for the next day, it waits anywhere from 1 minute to 10 hours to detect and I gotta instead use my super beefed out og lyr stack without gain switch for my reference class earphones I prefer over head clamping headphones for 10 years.

Hi i wanted to say thank you.

Whilst i didn't really understand what you meant by motherboard/pc power switch on - it did make me go digging for more and led me to enable ERP in my BIOS (which was disabled) and this has now resolved the 're-plug' mouse issue.

It is strange that none of my other mice (like 6) had any issues being detected (whether ERP was on or off) and whilst re-plug each day seems like an ez task lol i dont think its acceptable. Mice should just work when plugged in, especially ones that cost over $100, simple as that IMO.

But glad this has been resolved, i didn't want to have to go through RMA process direct with Razer which probably wouldn't have fixed the issue even if i got replacement.