I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 12 Apr 2021, 18:29

prolly cus the same reason we are still using usb 1.0 stuff everywhere except our leet viper8k users. convoluted tech standards, actually I don't know what I'm talking about as always so ignore me (sabre pro is garbage and so is the evga, sans some minor shape feats)

what is the tool you use to show these info relay

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Kamen Rider Blade
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 13 Apr 2021, 02:13

Donixo wrote:
12 Apr 2021, 17:14
Okay, so today i find out that the USB Port 3.1 im using is 2.0?
why is it showing 2.0 when my usb ports are 3.0 + over...

and the mouse is showing =========================== USB Port5 ===========================

Connection Status : 0x01 (Device is connected)
Port Chain : 3-5
Properties : 0x01
IsUserConnectable : yes
PortIsDebugCapable : no
PortHasMultiCompanions : no
PortConnectorIsTypeC : no
ConnectionIndex : 0x05 (Port 5)
CompanionIndex : 0
CompanionHubSymLnk : USB#ROOT_HUB30#4&5375334&2&0#{f18a0e88-c30c-11d0-8815-00a0c906bed8}
CompanionPortNumber : 0x15 (Port 21)
-> CompanionPortChain : 3-21

========================== Summary =========================
Vendor ID : 0x1532 (Razer (Asia-Pacific) Pte Ltd.)
Product ID : 0x0091
USB version : 2.00
Port maximum Speed : High-Speed (Companion Port 3-21 supports SuperSpeed)
Device maximum Speed : High-Speed
Device Connection Speed : High-Speed
Self Powered : yes
Demanded Current : 500 mA
Used Endpoints : 4

and that the port doenst support 3.0?


--------------- Connection Information V2 -------------
Connection Index : 0x05 (5)
Length : 0x10 (16 bytes)
SupportedUsbProtocols : 0x03
Usb110 : 1 (yes, port supports USB 1.1)
Usb200 : 1 (yes, port supports USB 2.0)
Usb300 : 0 (no, port not supports USB 3.0) -> but Companion Port 3-21 does
I wouldn't be surprised if Razer didn't bother moving the USB protocol past USB 2.0.

For mice and other HID input devices, there really isn't much point to move it past USB 2.0

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axaro1
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 13 Apr 2021, 03:45

What do you guys think about Motion Sync?

Apparently it can be enabled only at 4000hz or lower polling rates on the Viper 8khz.

Is synchronizing SPI with USB polling events actually useful or does it only exist to make mousetester graphs look good?
Looking at graphs it noticeably improves consistency.

Theoretically, and according to Endgame Gear firmware developers that are trying to implement soomething similar but on a 3370 instead of the 3399, Motion Sync causes motion data to be sent one report after they are generated to be in sync, so it's not as low latency as getting raw data directly from the sensor.

This is what pzogel from Techpowerup told me:
It ensures the 'timing window' between SPI communication and USB polling events is as small as possible, which both minimises latency (by up to an entire poll period, i.e. 1 ms at 1000 Hz) and maximises consistency. Still, the improvement is usually in the realm of microseconds, so it's at least debatable whether this improvement could be deemed meaningful or not. In any case, the usefulness or impact of MotionSync diminishes the higher the polling rate is.
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 10:40
I'm getting two different answers from two reputable sources, TheFiend could you elaborate on this feature?
XL2566K* | XV252QF* | LG C1* | HP OMEN X 25 | XL2546K | VG259QM | XG2402 | LS24F350[RIP]
*= currently owned



MONITOR: XL2566K custom VT: https://i.imgur.com/ylYkuLf.png
CPU: 5800x3d 102mhz BCLK
GPU: 3080FE undervolted
RAM: https://i.imgur.com/iwmraZB.png
MOUSE: Endgame Gear OP1 8k
KEYBOARD: Wooting 60he

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Razer_TheFiend
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 13 Apr 2021, 04:57

axaro1 wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 03:45
What do you guys think about Motion Sync?

Apparently it can be enabled only at 4000hz or lower polling rates on the Viper 8khz.

Is synchronizing SPI with USB polling events actually useful or does it only exist to make mousetester graphs look good?
Looking at graphs it noticeably improves consistency.

Theoretically, and according to Endgame Gear firmware developers that are trying to implement soomething similar but on a 3370 instead of the 3399, Motion Sync causes motion data to be sent one report after they are generated to be in sync, so it's not as low latency as getting raw data directly from the sensor.

This is what pzogel from Techpowerup told me:
It ensures the 'timing window' between SPI communication and USB polling events is as small as possible, which both minimises latency (by up to an entire poll period, i.e. 1 ms at 1000 Hz) and maximises consistency. Still, the improvement is usually in the realm of microseconds, so it's at least debatable whether this improvement could be deemed meaningful or not. In any case, the usefulness or impact of MotionSync diminishes the higher the polling rate is.
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 10:40
I'm getting two different answers from two reputable sources, TheFiend could you elaborate on this feature?
3370 does not have a dedicated hardware block for this purpose - so the best one can do is try to simulate that in firmware.

For 3399, which has dedicated hardware for motionsync, It ensures that the sensor reports back the data to the mcu at the lastest possible time before the poll event so the freshest data reaches the PC, if anything, it helps avoid a 1 poll delay, which is the polar opposite of adding it. This should be plenty evident from pzogel's motion latency test results too.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 13 Apr 2021, 15:08

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 04:57
axaro1 wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 03:45
What do you guys think about Motion Sync?

Apparently it can be enabled only at 4000hz or lower polling rates on the Viper 8khz.

Is synchronizing SPI with USB polling events actually useful or does it only exist to make mousetester graphs look good?
Looking at graphs it noticeably improves consistency.

Theoretically, and according to Endgame Gear firmware developers that are trying to implement soomething similar but on a 3370 instead of the 3399, Motion Sync causes motion data to be sent one report after they are generated to be in sync, so it's not as low latency as getting raw data directly from the sensor.

This is what pzogel from Techpowerup told me:
It ensures the 'timing window' between SPI communication and USB polling events is as small as possible, which both minimises latency (by up to an entire poll period, i.e. 1 ms at 1000 Hz) and maximises consistency. Still, the improvement is usually in the realm of microseconds, so it's at least debatable whether this improvement could be deemed meaningful or not. In any case, the usefulness or impact of MotionSync diminishes the higher the polling rate is.
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 10:40
I'm getting two different answers from two reputable sources, TheFiend could you elaborate on this feature?
3370 does not have a dedicated hardware block for this purpose - so the best one can do is try to simulate that in firmware.

For 3399, which has dedicated hardware for motionsync, It ensures that the sensor reports back the data to the mcu at the lastest possible time before the poll event so the freshest data reaches the PC, if anything, it helps avoid a 1 poll delay, which is the polar opposite of adding it. This should be plenty evident from pzogel's motion latency test results too.
so it does work on 8khz? vs something that was mainly meant for wireless?

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 14 Apr 2021, 03:30

lyrill wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 15:08

so it does work on 8khz? vs something that was mainly meant for wireless?
Motionsync has been disabled at 8k because it doesn't meet our internal performance criteria.


Motionsync was not "mainly meant for wireless" - it has no bearing on the connection method at all. It can be used over wired/RF/Bluetooth or whatever other connection method, same principle applies.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 14 Apr 2021, 14:22

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
14 Apr 2021, 03:30
lyrill wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 15:08

so it does work on 8khz? vs something that was mainly meant for wireless?
Motionsync has been disabled at 8k because it doesn't meet our internal performance criteria.


Motionsync was not "mainly meant for wireless" - it has no bearing on the connection method at all. It can be used over wired/RF/Bluetooth or whatever other connection method, same principle applies.
Ah ok ty for reply.
So seems like there's some messy hierarchy going on here:

1. beyond around 10kdpi(?) too rapid even for 3399 less other top sensors(?) and top mcu(?) to raw process out noise/jitter, regardless of lower os/ig sens being able to mask those ( higher dpi is like having the sensor zoom in, results in "more rapid" scene shift vs lower dpi with the equal pad movement velocity, so like a telephoto lens vs portrait lens, requires more sophisticated image stabilization and still harder to get a crisp image to begin with. for mouse it's lesser lens tech but dslr don't have to deal with rampant dust interference and low rez shooting object--a lot of premium outdoor textiles feel absurdly more rich and smooth vs even the best cloth pads-- and lowering sens is effectively zooming out. this is why mouse like Basilisk suggest lower dpi to couple with sniper zooming in, to cancel out the more rapid in game scene shift with less rapid "pixel" output into pc. a higher dpi is more rapid output, intended for panorama-less rapid in game movement;richer information in any given frame) which can be a current solution only because we are still at 1080p for esport..so having 10k+ raw dpi for those 4k 8k screens where it is no longer enough to sit at 2/11 is like having hdr and ips for 360hz+ monitors, convenient and usable but not main feature (nor mainstream, probably need 3090 SLI for esport level frames lol, the ips panels are a newer addition somewhat, but not exactly anything remarkably different from just turning up brightness imo)

2. beyond 4khz functionality on bespoke mcu (which is basically 8khz stage for now) is too tight and rapid for functioning motion sync on the sensor (and with mcu help?)

3. beyond 2-3khz too rapid for functioning wireless transfer which has its own emitter/related chips

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Falkentyne » 15 Apr 2021, 20:24

I think the 240hz/360hz problem is amplified on 1000hz mice because 1000hz mice already look terrible at 120hz while they look perfect at 125hz. And since 240hz and 360hz are even multiples of 120, well, there you go.

Did anyone test a 1000hz mouse at 250hz?

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 16 Apr 2021, 00:39

Falkentyne wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 20:24
I think the 240hz/360hz problem is amplified on 1000hz mice because 1000hz mice already look terrible at 120hz while they look perfect at 125hz. And since 240hz and 360hz are even multiples of 120, well, there you go.

Did anyone test a 1000hz mouse at 250hz?
which problem u referring to? never felt that 120hz was terrible on any of my 1khz since 2012.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Falkentyne » 16 Apr 2021, 18:40

lyrill wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 00:39
Falkentyne wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 20:24
I think the 240hz/360hz problem is amplified on 1000hz mice because 1000hz mice already look terrible at 120hz while they look perfect at 125hz. And since 240hz and 360hz are even multiples of 120, well, there you go.

Did anyone test a 1000hz mouse at 250hz?
which problem u referring to? never felt that 120hz was terrible on any of my 1khz since 2012.
Just tested it last night again.
This is on BOTH my XL2720Z and XL2746S.

Mouse: Logitech G903, 1000hz.

100hz: glass smooth turning
120hz: not glass smooth: almost like there is some sort of strange frame sync issue of some sort (not tearing, almost like a strange hitching as if something were slightly out of phase)
125hz: glass smooth
144hz: glass smooth

Chief? :(

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