I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 01 May 2021, 16:48

Ravencillo wrote:
01 May 2021, 09:44
mossfalt wrote:
24 Apr 2021, 15:19
lyrill wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 05:10
fyi just a shoutout to all my bros using calib for a decade--your not alone (this is how it's like me being 10/10 lazy btw )
where are these profiles files saved. I would like to keep one that I particularly like, is this possible ?
Probably here for custom calibration data:

Code: Select all

"C:\ProgramData/Razer/Razer Central/Accounts/RZR_number_razer_id_account/Emily3/Devices/number_id_device/Calibrations/PixartCalibrationData.xml"
Example:

Code: Select all

…
<SensorData>
        <Param0>37</Param0>
        <Param1>3</Param1>
      </SensorData>
    </PixartCalibrationData>
  </CustomCalibrationData>
</PixartCalibration>
and here: "SensorCalibration_Pixart.xml" for the current synapse settings

Code: Select all

...
<Mode>SmartTracking</Mode>
  <SmartTracking>
    <IsHysteresis>true</IsHysteresis>
    <TrackingDistance>2</TrackingDistance>
    <LiftOffDistance>2</LiftOffDistance>
    <LandingDistance>1</LandingDistance>
  </SmartTracking>
  <SurfaceTracking>
    <SurfaceDistance>5</SurfaceDistance>
    <LiftOffDistance>9</LiftOffDistance>
    <LandingDistance>4</LandingDistance>
  </SurfaceTracking>
  <LiftOff>3</LiftOff>
</SensorCalibration>

More info at project openrazer in github, issue 783 or search for: "[FR] Support for LIFTOFF distance feature in Razer mice" in google

it's open source? since when? since before pixart took over avago and deleted laser /rs2?

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 02 May 2021, 06:49

lyrill wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 17:13
so i've assorted this for those who are too lazy to do this themselves or don't care (you should)

note this is likely on a soft/weave pad, as those who didn't bother specifying it probably isn't using a hard/premium one. and he mentioned "parts of the pad scuffing the skate" back when he did zygen so yeah not gonna check every review for keywords

https://t.bilibili.com/519603545744409682?tab=2

https://t.bilibili.com/519610963156086494?tab=2

more

https://t.bilibili.com/519633481672833396?tab=2

https://t.bilibili.com/519633563270920926?tab=2

I'd really like to be sent that new shape 8khz any time it's ready Fiend, no joke, as in testing it for ultimate shape vs tech synergy. And I hope Right is still not sorry. Because even with Jesko Absolut, you'd still need the best track and the best fuel in the world, and the best driver. And I AM the most complete gamer there can be in the world.

https://t.bilibili.com/519649866965811379?tab=2

https://t.bilibili.com/519650837635765840?tab=2

I am whatever it takes.


Bump.

AND: revisit this before part 3/4/5/6

official Razer 8K no frills video first

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Jp4y1s7Yr

THEN my

"world's most authoritative analysis on Razer 8K and why the refresh rate isn't "true", dpi bloat era ended, hz bloat era just begun"

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1er4y1A7Y5

(11:00 to 12:00, 14:30 pay attention to tracking quality, all under 20k defaulted by even then, thanks to Razer_theFiend's insider knowledge --although doesn't look like more than a handful people in the world actually uses it, and certainly only I am using it correctly since back when)

BTW this thread would be less dead if there could be more people in the know participating and discussing more. Like, something simple for example: is the infinity sign (lay flat or otherwise) a more appropriate way to test circular accuracy than just a circle--because your not rapidly really changing direction (speed or angle) when doing just circles......So yeah I get why Razer does that thing that "MAY" better represent actual mouse swipes (and btw when doing calibration, should people mimic their actual swipe style or adhere strictly to that near extreme arm swipe thing??? seems like there was a bias against high edpi users that negatively affect tech workings that should be updated by now)

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 04 May 2021, 07:04

a little bit of math and physics on why Zy's misleading the crowd yet again, and why super/hyper/ultralight mice are a joke:

main tell line is: if I find using 0.33x 20kdpi on the slower side (but csgo is slow anyways kek), with a say 75g viper 8k (wires dangling included), then those 1k 2k "pros" need to get at least 20g "wireless god mouse" to reach the same control. (everything else aside)... and don't forget that 1k 2k dpi are pure trash by now, and that wireless 8khz wireless is impossible within 5 years just in terms of transmission, so don't even bother talking weight, not to mention for weight reduc for wired, going down to sub 20g requiring some photon wire kind of super thin light bs to reduce swindling effect ratio that would also be likely impossible to find the kind of material that thin and light while also able to shield 8khz.


so like right now the standard gram to edpi ratio is >0.01. if the 1k 2k folks use the starlight-12, I'll just diregard other games, prosettings list csgo like around 1k:


75/6600(+) * 1k(400-2400) I'll just take it as 0.01x1k, so Zy, you need to sell something 10 grams to be worthy of my control. if we are talking 1k edpi. (i don't know how to translate to other games and honestly i don't care). Again this is disregarding that nobody even is using viper 8k on the pro scene (csgo). so they are basically all trash


More accurately in physics term: edpi stands for average swinging distance, this so called "better control" means faster velocity change in a nutshell. So under the same hand/arm force or (this is the suggested goal here, and it is healhy regardless) lack of control fatigue, a higher lean Delta V (positive or negative)

This delta V will increase with edpi, because you travel less average distance (dictated by higher edpi, which is literally an analog to digital amplifier--no bloat---and so really thinking about it, why would anyone want the screen to move slower than the arm? on the one hand, your arm is capable of telling where it is, you don't need to amplify your movement 10 folds to know that it had moved at all, and on the other hand, your eyes CAN keep up with a higher motion length change than the arm because the eye is the more "digital" and a lot more "accurate" aspect, physically it takes a lot less calories to move the eyeball the same pov--no matter what pov and edpi you are setting, doesn't even matter how much-- than moving the hand/arm...a lot less muscles and body tissue moving------i'm not gonna talk about people wanting to reduce eye strain because here's zy saying the mice is straining the arm , remember? anyways, eye receives and resides near the brain which then commands the hand...) and with the same speed (and same weight and thus same momentum ) takes less time, so faster control.


This delta V of course also increases with lower weight. This delta V (AVERAGE, FOR COMMON HIGH LEVEL USE) also increases with lower static and moving friction, which is common on hard, not soft pads. ((for greater continuous control, not "stopping", because think about this: when do you require precise aim? what is maximum precision? everything else asides, you move as slowly as possible. you don't get to stop or "pinpoint" fast as possible while also as accurate as possible, that's just scientifically wrong. everything else is starting and micro adjustments. those are fluid and ever continous, they don't stop. those are called flicking if you shoot alongside. so yeah, average delta V increases with lower static and moving friction ))

so he missed at least 2 key points, in fact he goes backwards on at least 3 other points---

Better control is only "where you point", there's also the part of "where it shoots" so under the same circumstances you choose the better hardware, and that again associates to highest usable edpi. technically it's dpi, but because in reality it's igs that's more bloated than dpi (that's the only part where you get to say "mice sensors are so good these days"), i'm saying edpi here and it's ok. So basically mouse sensors are what dictates (limit, because there is still as always not supposed to be a limit) edpi usage.

Hardware also associates with the mouse pad. Notice "hardware"? it's not a coincidence, these mouse pads are all made by machinary, you can't cut out and tailor cloth with a scissor or machine made of cloth, remember? Cloth are not precision tools. They are sub optimal. The problem of clicking vibration on ultralight mice are reduced on softer pads but this positive aspect is more than enough nullified by the give of the pad especially when people are using lower edpi and going physically crazy with 1/2/?? + lod, are you sure such give is within 0.2mm tolerance of the fixed lens focus, _theFiend? I don't think so. Especially not when still a lot of people are still favoring super clicky switches (which is partly what forced you to choose a heavier dial on the viper 8k) and equating them to "longer lasting/more sturdy/affirmative" when in fact they probably does a lot more harm than good. And don't forget this vibration problem, and that of the hard pad vs switch clicks, or that of the soft pad give, or that of the flimsy shell being squished like a kiwi, all of this wouldn't exist if not for reducing the weight and build quality in the first place. Magnesium alloy is stronk, ok, but does a 20g alloy shell absorb vibration and resonance better than the best available plastic material at say 40g? I don't think so.

This is why when you see people say arbitrary thing like 60/70/80g is golden, or that a switch needs to be tactile enough and not too soft(meanwhile praising some such fotm thing as gm4.0 or 8.0 to no end) but never did all this thinking like I just laid out, it's completely pseudo logic.

OH and btw you wouldn't need to spec anything higher than 0.1mm lod if everyone was using ice flat pads as they should be, and thus there is no problem with catering to need of any kind of tolerance, since you admit that even as things are you only provide 0.2mm tolerance, and it IS a fixed focal length lens, not a variable zoom or anything. And that while being able to track out of focus, it is not ideal. So basically all the lod adjustments are as well out of focus if it doesn't change the focal length. If there is only one lod choice, it would be stellar and never out of focus as long as you don't lift up. If it isn't a high lod which is only designed so people can "pseudo track in the air" like a wannabe project mcfly meme (yeah it's that pathetic reality most people are in), then it would be stellar and never out of focus while cursor is moving, EVEN if you lift up, because it cuts out so fast(under the same speed of picking up the mouse, and again, people who use soft pads can afford to do it all in a more caustic frenzy, but that again defeats the whole "i want lighter strain on my arm" bs) . You talk about how assymetrical can get people back in action FASTER, but that shit only works if the kind of action people are getting back into ain't that accurate anyways, and this is for SURE only for low edpi users whose setup and playstyle filter out a lot more than just touch down jitter, as we previously discussed well enough in this thread. I trust that even now the "diverse" setup is mainly favored/optimized for the lower lod choices, but I hope in the future higher lod choices can be deleted entirely until "game changing tech" equivalent to such as 8khz Hyperspeed/Motionsync capable wireless arrive for lod, as currently I don't think anyone serious enough about true gaming should buy/main ANYTHING other than the Viper 8k.

For the switches being ligher vs more "manly" and the lod being lower vs
more "macho", it's like insisting on putting automobile manual gearbox on a bike, or tell me why hypercars and f1 uses shift levers instead of shift sticks that force you to move one hand out of the wheel? That is, if they haven't ditched manual entirely? See I'm not against arm swipping. I'd choose continuing to move the arm than lifting up every time when it's actually dire. Yeah I'd choose a bigger mouse pad for the job. that's only the largest continuous swipe distance, not the average. The average is still closer to a medium mouse pad than size of XL pad people would normally assume is made for heavy arm swippers on 800 edpi, for obvious reasons.

Kaldaien
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kaldaien » 15 May 2021, 13:28

I finally picked one up to go with my new 360 Hz monitor for testing Reflex integration.

I've long known that high mouse polling rates utterly destroy performance in many games, but was pleased to find aside from the usual suspects (i.e. Unreal Engine), it is possible to play games with an 8000 Hz mouse and have acceptable frame pacing much of the time.

I'll be doing a deeper dive into the HID input stack to try and identify the design characteristics of games that can't tolerate high polling rates in upcoming releases of Special K. I've already integrated gamepad polling-based Reflex features, now it's time to put mouse input under the microscope :)

howiec
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by howiec » 15 May 2021, 22:42

Kaldaien wrote:
15 May 2021, 13:28
I'll be doing a deeper dive into the HID input stack to try and identify the design characteristics of games that can't tolerate high polling rates in upcoming releases of Special K. I've already integrated gamepad polling-based Reflex features, now it's time to put mouse input under the microscope :)
Nice! Looking forward to it.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 16 May 2021, 07:14

Kaldaien wrote:
15 May 2021, 13:28
I finally picked one up to go with my new 360 Hz monitor for testing Reflex integration.

I've long known that high mouse polling rates utterly destroy performance in many games, but was pleased to find aside from the usual suspects (i.e. Unreal Engine), it is possible to play games with an 8000 Hz mouse and have acceptable frame pacing much of the time.

I'll be doing a deeper dive into the HID input stack to try and identify the design characteristics of games that can't tolerate high polling rates in upcoming releases of Special K. I've already integrated gamepad polling-based Reflex features, now it's time to put mouse input under the microscope :)
reflex integration? wdym? 8khz doesn't work with reflex

Kaldaien
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kaldaien » 16 May 2021, 08:39

lyrill wrote:
16 May 2021, 07:14
Kaldaien wrote:
15 May 2021, 13:28
I finally picked one up to go with my new 360 Hz monitor for testing Reflex integration.

I've long known that high mouse polling rates utterly destroy performance in many games, but was pleased to find aside from the usual suspects (i.e. Unreal Engine), it is possible to play games with an 8000 Hz mouse and have acceptable frame pacing much of the time.

I'll be doing a deeper dive into the HID input stack to try and identify the design characteristics of games that can't tolerate high polling rates in upcoming releases of Special K. I've already integrated gamepad polling-based Reflex features, now it's time to put mouse input under the microscope :)
reflex integration? wdym? 8khz doesn't work with reflex
What do the two things have to do with one another?

I was discussing the work I've been doing on my framerate limiter. It includes Reflex integration now, and I've moved onto seeing if I can solve a long standing problem with high-polling rate mice.

8 kHz works perfectly fine with Reflex, in that when you build support for Reflex into your software, you include a number of latency markers:

+ When the game's simulation begins
+ When the game begins batching render commands for the GPU
+ When the game issues a Present call
+ When the game samples input

Reflex (a recent revision of it, anyway) uses the latency markers to shuffle driver-level work around to try and delay input polling until closer to scan-out.

In a round-about way, it's all related. But the bigger problem is that high polling rate mice can absolutely tank framerate in some games, and I intend to get to the bottom of that problem and develop a solution to throttle or coalesce mouse input events if necessary to keep games running at playable framerates w/ high polling rate.

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 16 May 2021, 14:09

Kaldaien wrote:
16 May 2021, 08:39
lyrill wrote:
16 May 2021, 07:14
Kaldaien wrote:
15 May 2021, 13:28
I finally picked one up to go with my new 360 Hz monitor for testing Reflex integration.

I've long known that high mouse polling rates utterly destroy performance in many games, but was pleased to find aside from the usual suspects (i.e. Unreal Engine), it is possible to play games with an 8000 Hz mouse and have acceptable frame pacing much of the time.

I'll be doing a deeper dive into the HID input stack to try and identify the design characteristics of games that can't tolerate high polling rates in upcoming releases of Special K. I've already integrated gamepad polling-based Reflex features, now it's time to put mouse input under the microscope :)
reflex integration? wdym? 8khz doesn't work with reflex
What do the two things have to do with one another?

I was discussing the work I've been doing on my framerate limiter. It includes Reflex integration now, and I've moved onto seeing if I can solve a long standing problem with high-polling rate mice.

8 kHz works perfectly fine with Reflex, in that when you build support for Reflex into your software, you include a number of latency markers:

+ When the game's simulation begins
+ When the game begins batching render commands for the GPU
+ When the game issues a Present call
+ When the game samples input

Reflex (a recent revision of it, anyway) uses the latency markers to shuffle driver-level work around to try and delay input polling until closer to scan-out.

In a round-about way, it's all related. But the bigger problem is that high polling rate mice can absolutely tank framerate in some games, and I intend to get to the bottom of that problem and develop a solution to throttle or coalesce mouse input events if necessary to keep games running at playable framerates w/ high polling rate.
??????did you even read this thread? u have to use usb fs to have reflex to function on your mouse, u are capped at 1khz if you want to use reflex.

Maybe you should have Razer explain it again if anything changed or whatever.

Also lol @ forcing middle ring down people's throat when it's not even installed flat on any pad. Now I get to read about how people don't even put their mouse on the pad a tiny bit at all and hover it all the time........why have ANY skates by this point? pretty sure I'm not the weird one here

diakou
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Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 11:28

Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by diakou » 17 May 2021, 09:03

lyrill wrote:
16 May 2021, 14:09

??????did you even read this thread? u have to use usb fs to have reflex to function on your mouse, u are capped at 1khz if you want to use reflex.

Maybe you should have Razer explain it again if anything changed or whatever.

Also lol @ forcing middle ring down people's throat when it's not even installed flat on any pad. Now I get to read about how people don't even put their mouse on the pad a tiny bit at all and hover it all the time........why have ANY skates by this point? pretty sure I'm not the weird one here
Kaldaien never meant the 360Hz monitors function RLA (Reflex latency analyzer)

What he meant was Nvidia Reflex SDK (Valorant/Warzone/Apex Legends/Fortnite etc) latency pipeline optimizations. Kaldaien's program Special K has Reflex integration, meaning it can backport Reflex into pretty much any DX11 game. (I've had success with wrapping DX9->DX11 and then utilizing Reflex as well.)

He was more mentioning messing around with the intricacies of the OS + Reflex SDK + 8Khz mice.

Also, I'm not sure where the fullspeed thing happened, but AW2521h's spec is;

Image

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 17 May 2021, 10:00

diakou wrote:
17 May 2021, 09:03
lyrill wrote:
16 May 2021, 14:09

??????did you even read this thread? u have to use usb fs to have reflex to function on your mouse, u are capped at 1khz if you want to use reflex.

Maybe you should have Razer explain it again if anything changed or whatever.

Also lol @ forcing middle ring down people's throat when it's not even installed flat on any pad. Now I get to read about how people don't even put their mouse on the pad a tiny bit at all and hover it all the time........why have ANY skates by this point? pretty sure I'm not the weird one here
Kaldaien never meant the 360Hz monitors function RLA (Reflex latency analyzer)

What he meant was Nvidia Reflex SDK (Valorant/Warzone/Apex Legends/Fortnite etc) latency pipeline optimizations. Kaldaien's program Special K has Reflex integration, meaning it can backport Reflex into pretty much any DX11 game. (I've had success with wrapping DX9->DX11 and then utilizing Reflex as well.)

He was more mentioning messing around with the intricacies of the OS + Reflex SDK + 8Khz mice.

Also, I'm not sure where the fullspeed thing happened, but AW2521h's spec is;

Image

do you have a link to this? I thought this is Nvidia's own in house collab integrations with each respective game studios and their titles? no?

Again ask Razer_theFiend to clarify this again because it was pretty word that he specifically said those ports are all 2.0. I know what the brochure says on every 360hz monitor. I also know that Nvidia never listed any 8khz mouse or in their sense, entry, even long after the 8khz release of Corsair, instead they listed the Sabre as a/the top latency entry on 1khz, as in with 1khz, like all the entries...because reflex does NOT work on 8khz, like _theFiend said. so there was that.

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