I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 19 Apr 2021, 22:26

Falkentyne wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 18:40
Just tested it last night again.
This is on BOTH my XL2720Z and XL2746S.

Mouse: Logitech G903, 1000hz.

100hz: glass smooth turning
120hz: not glass smooth: almost like there is some sort of strange frame sync issue of some sort (not tearing, almost like a strange hitching as if something were slightly out of phase)
125hz: glass smooth
144hz: glass smooth

Chief? :(
It's a harmonics/beat frequency issue between two frequencies (mouse Hz + display Hz, worse during VSYNC ON situations, like mouse cursor)

The modulus method:
1000 modulus 100 = 0
1000 modulus 120 = 40
1000 modulus 125 = 0
1000 modulus 144 = 8

The divisor method:
1000 divided by 100 = 10
1000 divided by 120 = 8.3333333
1000 divided by 125 = 8
1000 divided by 144 = 6.9444444 (close to 7)

Mousefeel problems seems to be worst when both of these simultaneously happens:
(A) A non-zero modulus that's; AND
(B) A non-integer divisor that's not close to a roundoff. This tends to affect how big the microstutter-distance jumps is (the less integer the number is, the easier the microstutter is to feel).

Mousefeel can sometimes feel like crap when both (A) and (B) happens.

That said, a bigger mousePoll:displayHz ratio, will reduce the microstutter-distance jumps. It is exactly why I recommend oversampling your mouse poll rate well over display Hz -- for 240Hz+ a 2000Hz poll rate is a noticeable improvement. And for 360Hz+ it is almost mandatory to give up 1000Hz poll rate and get at least 2000Hz+ poll rate.
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masneb
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by masneb » 20 Apr 2021, 00:21

ChillyRide1712 wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:20
Valorant, CS:GO show fps drops when fast moving mouse, but if u cap ur fps to lowest ur saw its fine and playable. No problems with fps drops in Overwatch where my 5700xt on 90+% usage at 400 fps. Basically CPU struggle to register fast movements or it is supposed to work like that, dont know, but I fixed sttuters and improve fps by closing services and apps in background.
I have a 5900x as well and it doesn't come close to maxing out a core running at 8k polling. The current problems with 8k have nothing to do with CPU utilization unless you're running a really low end PC. A 5900x has 12 cores, CSGO definitely doesn't peg all of those cores, therefore you'll never run into a CPU bottleneck specifically in that game with that processor.

The problem with 8k has something to do with USB being unable to handle the amount of polling it's doing, games not being able to deal with that much input data, the mouse still being in it's infancy, or a combination of the above. I basically run the mouse at 1k now to avoid such situations. Sometimes games will seemingly handle it well, then freak out on occasion. I have another one where it actually causes reduced input, the mouse input slows down like I'm decreasing the DPI when I go to 8k. Have another one that causes microstuttering and hitching. Another in which it seems like it skips inputs erratically from the mouse, like it's dropping some inputs and that relationship isn't linear, so it'll lead to erratic movement.

I still also have a problem where the mouse cursor on occasion will start freaking out either when not even touching the mouse or when I'm actually using it. It will erratically 'vibrate' between two different positions like it loses tracking. It's very easy to see when it's doing this if I'm watching a youtube video and it's sitting in the window. When the controls disappear, any movement from the mouse causes them to come back. Normally I would think that's related to the surface it's on, but it doesn't matter what I use. That started happening when I upgraded from the launch firmware. Both of the newer ones still have this issue.

sk1p
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by sk1p » 20 Apr 2021, 00:22

ChillyRide1712 wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:23
sk1p wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 07:44
I have been using Razer Viper 8kHz for two weeks and confused for this experience .. as I have the first Viper for one year and compare them during two weeks and what I found:

3390 from first Viper feels more responsive for me than focus+ if I don't have installed Razer synapse(both mouses with 400dpi and 1000hz), If I install synapse my previous Viper started to had slight input lag, but Viper 8K becomes fine, still didn't find explanation to this issue) and I still like my game experience in CS GO with the first Viper and uninstalled synapse more, still can not decide which mouse to choose.

I found that Focus+ slightly consistent than 5g sensor of previous Viper, I agree with this from Razer that 5g has 99.4 precision, but focus+ 99.6%.

with 8000hz I feel very fast input, more faster then with 1000hz, but I have sometimes in CS GO fps drops and bullets like not counted, sometimes I have insane frags, but overall with 8000hz my game experience worse then with 1000hz, I have i5 8600k, gtx 1060, Asus VG279QM 240hz IPS.

Do somebody has some issues in CS GO with 8000hz and more powerfull PC's ?
Basically own mouse for 2 month. Found some interesting info. My rig is 5900X 4.85CCX1 4.8CCX2 caped, no pbo, 5700xt, 64GB Ram 3733 cl14. Viper 8k, 8k polling rate, 20k dpi, 0.15-0.20 sensivity in games, Samsung g7 240hz wqhd. Synapse installed but app and services not running.

Overwatch with high precision on play ok. Anything else sttuter in Valorant, CS:GO, Warzone, Apex, WOW.
Direct connect to CPU usb lanes, enything else no chipset usb. On AMD gpu side, driver services cause sttuters and all rgb and aio software running causes sttuter too. AMD External Event Utility service, ASUS Armory crate, NZXT CAM - closing this fixes all sttuters in games above. However, Viper 8k hit CPU very hard in every game where cpu is key to maxing fps. Valorant, CS:GO show fps drops when fast moving mouse, but if u cap ur fps to lowest ur saw its fine and playable. No problems with fps drops in Overwatch where my 5700xt on 90+% usage at 400 fps. Basically CPU struggle to register fast movements or it is supposed to work like that, dont know, but I fixed sttuters and improve fps by closing services and apps in background. Caped to lowest I saw in games. Still, playing on high dpi is smth new to me. Feels odd and not consistant.
Probably for NVIDIA users and rgb lovers it works too, close/disable bloatware and test.
Thank you for the information! I checked CPU utility in task manager and with fast moving of mouse and 8000hz I have 26% using of CPU, with 1000hz I have 9-11%. I have in CS GO fps_max 0, will try to set it to fps_max 300.

Falkentyne
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Falkentyne » 20 Apr 2021, 01:19

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 22:26
Falkentyne wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 18:40
Just tested it last night again.
This is on BOTH my XL2720Z and XL2746S.

Mouse: Logitech G903, 1000hz.

100hz: glass smooth turning
120hz: not glass smooth: almost like there is some sort of strange frame sync issue of some sort (not tearing, almost like a strange hitching as if something were slightly out of phase)
125hz: glass smooth
144hz: glass smooth

Chief? :(
It's a harmonics/beat frequency issue between two frequencies (mouse Hz + display Hz, worse during VSYNC ON situations, like mouse cursor)

The modulus method:
1000 modulus 100 = 0
1000 modulus 120 = 40
1000 modulus 125 = 0
1000 modulus 144 = 8

The divisor method:
1000 divided by 100 = 10
1000 divided by 120 = 8.3333333
1000 divided by 125 = 8
1000 divided by 144 = 6.9444444 (close to 7)

Mousefeel problems seems to be worst when both of these simultaneously happens:
(A) A non-zero modulus that's; AND
(B) A non-integer divisor that's not close to a roundoff. This tends to affect how big the microstutter-distance jumps is (the less integer the number is, the easier the microstutter is to feel).

Mousefeel can sometimes feel like crap when both (A) and (B) happens.

That said, a bigger mousePoll:displayHz ratio, will reduce the microstutter-distance jumps. It is exactly why I recommend oversampling your mouse poll rate well over display Hz -- for 240Hz+ a 2000Hz poll rate is a noticeable improvement. And for 360Hz+ it is almost mandatory to give up 1000Hz poll rate and get at least 2000Hz+ poll rate.
Great information as always, Chief. Thank you!

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 20 Apr 2021, 03:23

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 22:26
Falkentyne wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 18:40
Just tested it last night again.
This is on BOTH my XL2720Z and XL2746S.

Mouse: Logitech G903, 1000hz.

100hz: glass smooth turning
120hz: not glass smooth: almost like there is some sort of strange frame sync issue of some sort (not tearing, almost like a strange hitching as if something were slightly out of phase)
125hz: glass smooth
144hz: glass smooth

Chief? :(
It's a harmonics/beat frequency issue between two frequencies (mouse Hz + display Hz, worse during VSYNC ON situations, like mouse cursor)

The modulus method:
1000 modulus 100 = 0
1000 modulus 120 = 40
1000 modulus 125 = 0
1000 modulus 144 = 8

The divisor method:
1000 divided by 100 = 10
1000 divided by 120 = 8.3333333
1000 divided by 125 = 8
1000 divided by 144 = 6.9444444 (close to 7)

Mousefeel problems seems to be worst when both of these simultaneously happens:
(A) A non-zero modulus that's; AND
(B) A non-integer divisor that's not close to a roundoff. This tends to affect how big the microstutter-distance jumps is (the less integer the number is, the easier the microstutter is to feel).

Mousefeel can sometimes feel like crap when both (A) and (B) happens.

That said, a bigger mousePoll:displayHz ratio, will reduce the microstutter-distance jumps. It is exactly why I recommend oversampling your mouse poll rate well over display Hz -- for 240Hz+ a 2000Hz poll rate is a noticeable improvement. And for 360Hz+ it is almost mandatory to give up 1000Hz poll rate and get at least 2000Hz+ poll rate.
I loved how you explained it so elequently =D

What's the minimum ratio that you recommend for Mouse Polling : Display Refresh Rate?

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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 20 Apr 2021, 22:08

i dont have much problem but I don't play much or at high lvl in csgo. I don't play awp much but just trying it for the lolz flicking people cross corridors, and choke points, it's like boom dead boom dead. so ez. No actually it's like dead and then, OH i did that?

To me, the most important aspect of whether csgo should be taken seriously for any related discussion is still this: shame about the no official 128tick and no rank resetting everyone and starting people who have not played since 2012 at potato tier with actual noobs, and the lack of severe punishment for disconnecters and ping lock (Only cus they complain they have high ping and then leave, like, come on) and they shouldn't have seperate queues with map banning....so lame, everyone just play the same tired out overvoted maps, because it totally takes people 20 years to learn a quarter of a theme park(>.>) oh wait I should respect the youngens coming up to pro scene at barely 17 my bad..but wait, it's pro scene, don't you guys get paid to do more than just basic footwork? And how does that excessive map banning(limited pool map voting) possibly translate to pub scene, like there's not even a team dynamic, and it's not like you even have 100+ map pools then ban a dozen(let everyone ban at least one, like dota 2), or that a csgo map is more complicated to learn than a dota 2 hero....they should expand whatever's most played to forced newer map pools so it doesn't become stale cus people have no taste. at least the usual ranked queue let people pick, unlike r6s etc.

I haven't heard any buzz about Valorant actually letting people rise from pub scene straight into pro scene in an official streamlined integrated and canon process, but then again I haven't even bothered/found time to install on my new pc after 3 seasons. I doubt they are actually for real about that commitment (to making esport more real/legit). My initial reaction was that riot had to make something popular of whatever is already popular, so they did LOL with dota, and then they never bothered to do any with 1.6, yet now with GO being a bit too mainstream, they finally did a copy, with currently lesser Overwatch and Apex etc stitched in. I guess people all have preconception of how things are and lingers even after they try it themselves. I guess I am still looking out for the real big deal.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Apr 2021, 02:09

Kamen Rider Blade wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 03:23
What's the minimum ratio that you recommend for Mouse Polling : Display Refresh Rate?
About 4x-6x. That's why I recommend 2000Hz poll for 360Hz monitors.

Some can feel issues even when the ratio is 10x+, telling a minor difference between 4000Hz poll and 8000Hz poll, but there's very fast diminishing returns after about 2000 Hz. But 1000Hz vs 2000Hz is very major on a 360 Hz monitor.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 21 Apr 2021, 02:15

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 02:09
Kamen Rider Blade wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 03:23
What's the minimum ratio that you recommend for Mouse Polling : Display Refresh Rate?
About 4x-6x. That's why I recommend 2000Hz poll for 360Hz monitors.

Some can feel issues even when the ratio is 10x+, telling a minor difference between 4000Hz poll and 8000Hz poll, but there's very fast diminishing returns after about 2000 Hz. But 1000Hz vs 2000Hz is very major on a 360 Hz monitor.
So as monitor refresh technology progress past 360 Hz, would you lean closer to the 4x, or higher to the 6x, or just recommend an ever increasing mouse polling ratio to 10x?

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Apr 2021, 02:23

Kamen Rider Blade wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 02:15
So as monitor refresh technology progress past 360 Hz, would you lean closer to the 4x, or higher to the 6x, or just recommend an ever increasing mouse polling ratio to 10x?
Personally, I'd keep it constant.
If you're using 6x, then when upgrading 360Hz to 720Hz monitors, when come out someday, then switch from 2000Hz poll rate to 4000Hz poll rate, unless you're already using a higher poll Hz.

It's a series of multiple tradeoffs:
- Human visibility/feelability of the poll:displayHz ratio (you need to oversample mouse poll rate sufficiently)
- The load factor of poll Hz on software
- The diminishing curve of returns
- The Vicious Cycle Effect (higher resolutions amplify visibility of refresh rate limitations, so if resolutions go up too...)

In an ideal world I love to keep it at 8000Hz by default. But for those who's concerned about game problems (8000Hz issues), keeping the ratio tight (~6x) gets you most of the benefits without overloading the game.

No mouse does 2000Hz as well as the Razer 8KHz Viper, so that's the new default go-to choice for new 360Hz monitor purchasers.
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Kamen Rider Blade » 21 Apr 2021, 02:50

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 02:23
Kamen Rider Blade wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 02:15
So as monitor refresh technology progress past 360 Hz, would you lean closer to the 4x, or higher to the 6x, or just recommend an ever increasing mouse polling ratio to 10x?
Personally, I'd keep it constant.
If you're using 6x, then when upgrading 360Hz to 720Hz monitors, when come out someday, then switch from 2000Hz poll rate to 4000Hz poll rate, unless you're already using a higher poll Hz.

It's a series of multiple tradeoffs:
- Human visibility/feelability of the poll:displayHz ratio (you need to oversample mouse poll rate sufficiently)
- The load factor of poll Hz on software
- The diminishing curve of returns
- The Vicious Cycle Effect (higher resolutions amplify visibility of refresh rate limitations, so if resolutions go up too...)

In an ideal world I love to keep it at 8000Hz by default. But for those who's concerned about game problems (8000Hz issues), keeping the ratio tight (~6x) gets you most of the benefits without overloading the game.

No mouse does 2000Hz as well as the Razer 8KHz Viper, so that's the new default go-to choice for new 360Hz monitor purchasers.
Since 8 kHz is the official "Upper Limit" of USB Polling based on the smallest possible Micro-Frame Packet Time Interval allowed via USB standard.

I did some math and analysis as to what "Other Polling Rates" can be attained while maintaing integer Polling Hz #'s and while maintaining integer Micro-Frame Time Intervals on the USB side. Here's what I came up with:

Image

Obviously, any Polling Rates below 125 Hz has uses for "Power Savings" for other USB based devices.

You gotta remember that USB isn't only used by HID (Human Interface Devices).

Camera's, Sensors, all sorts of other devices makes use of USB and having more precise control over the USB polling Rates could help with power management. So I'm trying to not be "Selfish" about only wanting High Polling Rates and looking at all available Polling Rates that can help everybody based on what I know about USB's design and Micro-Frame limitations.

But given what I analyzed, we have 28 possible Whole Integer Refresh Rates that align around the integer based Micro-Frame Packets. That's 24 more than is already specified by USB IF (Implementors Forum) and Spec.

That can allow for some serious fine control of USB's polling rate choices if we can get the USB IF to listen and add these polling rates into a new revision of the spec.

Having more Polling Rate options that can better adjust to known good Refresh Rate #'s for monitors would be nice.

Image

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