I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

[Razer_TheFiend]

The image clearly shows a latency increase with a 2 meter extender. Considering it's most likely an absolute value unaffected by the rest of the pipeline it would end up being roughly 5% increased total latency on an optimized high end system.

The odd thing about this screenshot is that using the monitor hub results in LOWER latency than directly connecting it to the back panel which just further reinforces my belief of 20 sample click to photon tests not being conclusive evidence.

Extenders don't add latency in any meaningful way. Additional cable should add in the range of 10ns per meter. That's 1/100,000th of a millisecond. Of course trying to measure this using a signal chain that has a latency between 15-35ms is completely futile.

Cable length only matters in terms of signal integrity, not latency.

Fun fact : The first prototypes of Viper 8KHz shipped with a 2.1m cable before we had to reduce it to 1.8m. Even with the added shielding, 2.1m was marginal in terms of signal integrity stress-tests.

[Brainlet]

Cable length only matters in terms of signal integrity, not latency.

Yeah but the end result is still the same though, increased latency due to dropped packets.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Yeah but the end result is still the same though, increased latency due to dropped packets.

Ain't "speed-of-light latency" versus "error-correction-latency" a fun distinction?

It may be an artificial/perceived latency since error correction is a programming / mathematical / algorithmic construct.
But at the end of the day, the user still complains about lag.

Often signal integrity will suddenly cut out (it works versus it stops working). Like the mouse works for a few seconds, but erratically stops working for a second or two, and rinse-repeat.

But sometimes it's a diffuse lag (USB stays alive but with packet dropouts) especially if the signal integrity is only partially affected with spiky inteference with lots of quiet moments (e.g. high frequency AC noise from a switching transformer means thousands of quiet no-EMI moments versus hi-EMI, from frequent AC crossing events). So this might cause a situation where it EMI/EMF/interference kills every-other-packet or every-few-packets (e.g. GOOD-bad-GOOD-bad-bad-GOOD-bad), rather than a sudden complete signal dropout (like mouse stopping working for 2-3 seconds). Then the error correction adds a more consistent/diffuse latency, rather than an erratic latency or erratic mouse-not-working events. So it just hundreds or thousands of microfreezes diffused over one second. Then the user complains the mouse is adding a consistent latency (from lost packets and/or USB error correction).

Signal integrity is a complex topic in real world when people put so many transformer boxes behind their computers, with all kinds of different interference patterns, and some interference patterns creates what feels like diffuse latency to an end-user.

The mess at a computer desk can be a lot of interference sources of many switching-power-supply wallwarts, transformers, computer speakers (mid-Hz EMP bomb), subwoofers (low-Hz EMP bomb), routers (mystery EMI), poorly shielded computer monitors (a 240 Hz EMP bomb), cheaply made backlight PWM dimming power supplies (an 864 Hz EMP bomb) even if monitor uses capacitors to make the PWM-dimming PWM-free. All of this, can potentially inject diffuse signal integrity failures -- USB packet dropout/error correction/etc diffuse enough to feel like input lag.

The real world computing environment is an unfortunate soup of interference.

TL;DR: Moral of the story: Try to route mouse cables at least 1/4 to 1/2 meter away from your powered wires / power supplies / monitors / powered devices. The inverse square law is your best friend to avoid interference injected into mouse cables.

[lyrill]

my coaxial cable linked to my musical fidelity 192khz av(or was it d-a?) converter fried themselves and the 100$ extra I paid for the usb section on the og schiit bifrost, of course it blacked out all my gear in the computer room as well including the pc I think... I don't remember which cable it went in proximity with ( right now my mouse cables or all my cables are as far apart as reasonbly can. as they have been for years since then. just good practice from my own experience whenever wherever they may be which didn't need to be said nor the fact that sun rises from the east and likely won't change in our lifetimes. I also wipe off any dust and grime as possible on ANY cable ports, but "pros" recently tell me not to use alcohol wipes since they can be corrosive/that electricity go through dust like they are nothing so no need, so I'm trying not to be too keen about it. I am too lazy to wipe off monitor every day for sure. Just whatever I notice interfering with my view while live..I just made sure my monitor power cable and dp cable were at least 2cm apart yesterday, from behind my desk--on it I only put a slice of wet wipe package to seperate them for now..if I could just bend things and move things a bit, I don't want to have to bother with wrapping things with whatever none conducting material to yank them so far apart) . I was forced to migrate/upgrade to optical port per Jason's instructions BECAUSE USB PORTS SUCK (at that time mere optical beats their gen 2 super upgrade kit or whatever its name was) -- I only bought the usb version because I only had a gaming laptop at the time that also had like 1.2a HDMI which also couldn't even run my benq 2420t in full glory--and SawStudio ironically could not run lowest latency like it could before with the converter's help, on my old pc. this was like 2015/16. I have not yet installed Sawstudio again on my new pc since I haven't used the program much for some years either. My question for you Alpha is, if your pc could run 192hz 24bit with 1ms 8byte buffer to listen to your favorite music, would you rather it play 44.1khz 16bit +like 200 ms and 4kb buffer or whatever because "it's snakeoil/placebo!"

If you forgot why you need to tilt your body when high speed cornering on a bike, it's because it didn't need to be remembered, because You don't want/need to fall constantly as if you were the first biker in history learning how to ride, all over again. it's not regurgitated bs same as going wired isn't bs because last I checked (and I have not said this here since this isn't audio related discussion but I HAVE said this elsewhere and I try to STATE that ONLY to AVOID ANY potential accusation of repeating MYSELF, I am not responsible for what others say in coincidence) it is my observation that all top/very top end reference/audiophile headphones STILL aren't wireless, after all these years(maybe they should be, but you ain't Senn/Sony/Apple Chief engineer are u ). 1.8m and 2.1m never made much difference except the fact that the interference of a closer proximity PC because the mouse cable had to be shorter brings me immediately greater noise from the fans even at all lowest (gaming and music scene is pretty loud and hollow as it is I don't think it matters to most people), and all the other potential "bs" interference as Chief eloquently and expertly lay out (as always). I have also stated since my premier Chinese review of Zygen (on bilibili) (since it's still later than this news originally) that audio hz are insanely higher than mouse stats, and the cables can afford to be much thicker. And it is common practice, no, it's COMMON SENSE to lower cost AND increase perf by buying a shorter cable, just long enough so it doesn't dangle around excessively if nothing else..

btw it's national political conference weeks all vpn are janky in these times I couldn't watch whatever links if I tried.

[lyrill]

Yeah no it's just a random neutral complaint as a plebian, problems of net neutraility is our common enemy as netizens around the world.

To bring things back on track, here's something less crude than what I drew in my last vid explaining why the hz to speed scaling isn't on par for this 8khz of Razer's

i drew this while having Overwatch in menu on background.

I have not discerned low vs mid vs high speed because that and the whole standard of it all obviously varies depending on user pref/usage scenarios.

Someone in comments added that as long as the left column in Mouse Movement Recorder is greater than 1x then "the hz is not high enough". (with 1khz it's easily 3 digits while 8khz is around 2 digits in high speed, While this graph is extremely digressive, that graph of counts vs speed would conversely be extremely progressive lol, if you already have the 8k try it yourself to see) While the first part is informative, I have to again remark that people's needs are different, and people who swipe a lot will benefit more visibly from a brute high hz, no matter what kind of wonky graph ratio is chosen. But the way it is set up now, the desired gap closing from realistic to ideal is much more apparent on higher speed--that is until 8khz is capped, because obviously the 1khz creature capped out long ago in much lower speed.

If it were all set up perfectly, there wouldn't be ANY ratio difference, since it would all be on the same line, just 8x longer. and then snap to horizontal "mute" again. (yes that would be my heart stopping at lameness because frowning on your own overcapped max IPS vs human capability is so ironic in this context). You see, when the graph curve ratio is wrong, it's not the problem of lack of tech architecture when you can already do 8khz, back then with 1khz you could argue that this digression makes capping out in low speed 'predictable" and smooth, and not too abruptly noticeable, which certainly would help since you want to feel like you are always "up there" even though it's not even needed at 90% parts of the time before 1khz is reached, at the lower lower speeds....well maybe only not for the basilisk users playing pubg since 2017 like me....IF overflowing is beneficial to enough scenarios and users, one might even say that as it stands, on a very limited low speed range, there might be indeed 8x "overflow", which I guess you can call it functional feature...AND in this case it's another aspect of 8khz doing intended work, but again there are many games where raw input is buggy, which may force switching down from 20kdpi to 5kdpi or getting used to a higher edpi all together to avoid lag. If one cannot achieve lag free pixel to mouse skate(see why i worded it backwards here subconsciously? because it should be equivalent!) response without janky accelerations and jitter no matter what, then this is not a problem of dpi or hz anymore, it's an outright broken mouse through and through for the specific discerning requirements. inferior mouse pad users and hand control limits are not supposed to bottleneck a better mouse design for others.

NOW you are SUPPOSED to go mute on the green line. If you have 650 ips you might as well have excessive HZ whatever that can be, so people will laugh at the green line going to infinity when in reality they are laughing at their none robotic arm

I should have probably smoothed out that mid section of 8khz a bit welp not gonna repost another edit..but the end mute is actually very generous here, as capping out 8khz gives around 10 pixels (and counting, but not actually very easy to get 2x 3x larger separation because the speed is already reasonably high u cannot hope to up and double it by swiping a bit faster) of dot read separation, where as on this graph it's like 3-4 times lower than ideal (density where it reaches not more not less than no visible dotting)

[1000WATT]

In general, I am pleased with the purchase of the razer viper 8khz, it remains to replace the wire.

Most likely, I again did not understand what you are talking about, because I did not receive any comment on this message = \

It is a pity that the list of compatible hardware for working with this mouse has not been specified.
Most likely, we ourselves will have to collect this list.
So that the person who bought this product does not have the problems shown in this video ( https://youtu.be/oHKGgUqvdKU?t=1029 )

my specifications
asus maximus x hero 8700k ddr3200
I have not noticed any problems using this mouse. If observed 1 parameter. The processor frequency did not fall below 3 ghz.
If you intentionally lower the cpu frequency. When you move the mouse, the frame rate drops to 0 and the screen freezes. This is exactly what some bloggers demonstrate.

A few more graphs at different cpu frequencies. from me. frequencies from 0.8 to 5.2
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[Alpha]

oh and btw is there a link to the 3080+8k article cus I can't find it in Area and title post said it was due last Nov.

One of my computer failed in December postponed the article to later -- it was such a busy month and I had to cherrypick what tasks to postpone til new year. Sorry about that. It's still coming, as I hurry through my overflowing plate -- there is a Blur Busters Approved monitor I am currently focussing on getting launched first. THEN, I'll definitely hit the 8KHz mouse.

As you all already know, Blur Busters essentially runs on Valve Time for article deadlines. Guilty as charged.

The odd thing about this screenshot is that using the monitor hub results in LOWER latency than directly connecting it to the back panel which just further reinforces my belief of 20 sample click to photon tests not being conclusive evidence.

I think both he and you are right.

20 samples are too few, but there are some interesting insights from background knowledge:

There are rare cases where a hub unexpectedly reduces latency. It doesn't happen often, but it happens -- for mudane reasons like improved USB processing (e.g. better USB chip in hub than in the computer) and/or repeatering for a stronger USB signal that doesn't require error correction by a crappy motherboard USB chip on a poor S/N connection running too close to noisefloor. USB2 packets being re-encapsulated (within USB3 hub) into USB3 if the chip in the motherboard is better and less buggy at processing USB3 than USB2. Or it could also be coincidential (crappy connector mating, worn USB ports, cables, etc). All kinds of rare edge-case reasons that a hub may unexpectedly reduce latency.

But almost always, it's better to connect directly.

USB extension cables occasionally add a bit of latency from USB error correction, since longer cables can reduce signal strength to the point where the motherboard's USB chip has to do more error correction by asking the mouses' USB chip to retry the USB packet that failed. Like a network connection with a 5% packet loss, it happens on USB cables. It's exactly why in high-EMI environments, wireless mice sometimes have less lag than wired mouse (e.g. if you live under a hydro transmission corridor).

If you use good cables and a good USB chip on the computer, then there should be no noticeable lag increases. But in real world, we have crap USB cables and crap EMI environments, with crap USB motherboard chips overloaded with many USB devices (like a simultaneous 4KHz USB keyboard), presenting lots of opportunity to add unexpected lag from USB error correction.

My current favourite recommendation for the 8000 Hz mouse is a direct USB plug to a PCIe USB card with its own PCIe lane directly to the CPU, with no interference by other USB devices (only USB device plugged into PCIe USB card). Single USB chip processing the 8KHz mouse directly.

Valve time . Agree completely as its almost always better to connect directly. Even at a primitive (and not scientific level by any stretch) just adding distance makes me think it adds time .

My environment is exactly how you have described. I have 4 or 5 USB devices (may be my keyboard takes two slots one is a passthrough not used). Nothing is on USB 2.0 though. There are real issues with AMD and USB unfortunately. I run a 3090 FTW 3 Ultra that conveniently sits DIRECTLY on top of the chipset fan. That was a wonderful design . I am in the process of just replacing since it is was purchased day 1 on the X570 launch but stock....

Can I trouble you for the walk through on your setup or what you recommend? Do you have a recommended PCIe USB Card? Regardless I'll have to use a USB extender, I suppose I could piggyback off my keyboard but EMI would have to be a thing at that point. With my current board I have,

Manual states 2 shared PCIe lanes with CPU, x16 & x8. The 1 and 4 are tied to the chipset. What card would you throw in here? Are you running an Intel machine since it appears AMD boards are at least sharing lanes if you have a GPU or what are you doing? Thank you sir!!

[Chief Blur Buster]

Can I trouble you for the walk through on your setup or what you recommend?

I just got an inexpensive high-rated USB3 card from Amazon.

Do you have a recommended PCIe USB Card?'

I did not research in particular as I was in a hurry to check out a lot of loot off Amazon -- the priority was to offload USB processing from the motherboard chipset, so it's not sharing USB processing (dedicated USB chip), USB traffic (hub contention) or PCIe lanes (lane contention).

There are tests of USB port lottery that succeeded, and PCIe just simply bypasses the port lottery and goes straight to jackpot. It's pretty obvious 8 KHz is a lot more sensitive to USB issues than 1 KHz.

I bet the PCIe USB card will also bypass the AMD USB issues, too. A great escape hatch to your 8 KHz USB worries.

[Alpha]

I have not yet installed Sawstudio again on my new pc since I haven't used the program much for some years either. My question for you Alpha is, if your pc could run 192hz 24bit with 1ms 8byte buffer to listen to your favorite music, would you rather it play 44.1khz 16bit +like 200 ms and 4kb buffer or whatever because "it's snakeoil/placebo!"

If you forgot why you need to tilt your body when high speed cornering on a bike, it's because it didn't need to be remembered, because You don't want/need to fall constantly as if you were the first biker in history learning how to ride, all over again. it's not regurgitated bs same as going wired isn't bs because last I checked (and I have not said this here since this isn't audio related discussion but I HAVE said this elsewhere and I try to STATE that ONLY to AVOID ANY potential accusation of repeating MYSELF, I am not responsible for what others say in coincidence) it is my observation that all top/very top end reference/audiophile headphones STILL aren't wireless, after all these years(maybe they should be, but you ain't Senn/Sony/Apple Chief engineer are u ). 1.8m and 2.1m never made much difference except the fact that the interference of a closer proximity PC because the mouse cable had to be shorter brings me immediately greater noise from the fans even at all lowest (gaming and music scene is pretty loud and hollow as it is I don't think it matters to most people), and all the other potential "bs" interference as Chief eloquently and expertly lay out (as always). I have also stated since my premier Chinese review of Zygen (on bilibili) (since it's still later than this news originally) that audio hz are insanely higher than mouse stats, and the cables can afford to be much thicker. And it is common practice, no, it's COMMON SENSE to lower cost AND increase perf by buying a shorter cable, just long enough so it doesn't dangle around excessively if nothing else..

btw it's national political conference weeks all vpn are janky in these times I couldn't watch whatever links if I tried. "socialism" (or maybe I should read history book to check exactly why youtube etc are still banned in China for the same ONGOING reasons)

I cut some of this for curtesy and scrolling purposes, in case you're on mobile. Sorry to hear about the VPN issues! To answer your question, my preference would be to run my audio at the sample rate and bit it was mastered at. If we're eliminating the human factor (lets say perfect ears 20hz-20,000hz, though I will flat out debate this with anyone (DM not to derail), I have a dedicated theater room with 2 18 inch subs and another pair of 15 inch Servo's in an Atmos 5.4.4 setup, sound proofing, calibrated with REW and I can clearly hear to single digits. Helicopter scene in Black Hawk down... oh my... naturally its felt as well as the walls can flex but anywho, we'll use the 20-20) If I am listening to something that was mastered @ 16bit 44100hz that would be ideal.

My PC does not have any high end audio but I run a few combos, from Tube Amps with a vast variety of vintage tubes (imagine, introducing noise and distorting the harmonic wave) to all digital stacks. In place right now, I am running a digital optical cable from my board to my Topping D50s (USB and PCM 16/44.1 - 32/768, Coaxial and Optical highest is 24/192) and shortest RCA's I could find to my Topping A50s powering either my Beyerdynamic T1 Version 2 or most of the time my Sennheiser HD800S via balanced 4.4mm output. My PC is setup to 16 bit @ 44100hz due to most of what I listen too. Is this wrong?

The only interference I pick up on is if my mobile is getting an actual payload and the cable is touching the wireless stand, this is noticeable if the Gain is on 6dB (say accidentally hit). On some of my other amps, you simply don't hear it or I haven't, though they do not have the balanced 4.4 option. My HD800S have like 9 foot long cables though my custom made balanced XLR cables for my tube amps are really short, I can some noise from my favorite tube amps but that is just the nature of the beast with these as I understand it. Not to digress, would noise be less likely using Optical over say a Coaxial or USB? Should a person run at 32/768 even if the track is mastered at 16/44.1?

I actually ride a couple of bikes lol.... we'll save that. I'm not sure the wireless piece though. Do you mean wired as in the extender? It sounds like the ideal scenario is the just make sure no cables are touching. How are you achieving this aside from sheer brilliance. Are you just moving something in between or do they have a cable separator thing? I'd like to explore this but it would take a TON of time as I have multiple PC's working together and cables are kind of on top of each other... white lie, they are stacked. For the Viper 8k I have the cables routed where they are not touching anything.

[Alpha]

Can I trouble you for the walk through on your setup or what you recommend?

I just got an inexpensive high-rated USB3 card from Amazon.

Do you have a recommended PCIe USB Card?'

I did not research in particular as I was in a hurry to check out a lot of loot off Amazon -- the priority was to offload USB processing from the motherboard chipset, so it's not sharing USB processing (dedicated USB chip), USB traffic (hub contention) or PCIe lanes (lane contention).

There are tests of USB port lottery that succeeded, and PCIe just simply bypasses the port lottery and goes straight to jackpot. It's pretty obvious 8 KHz is a lot more sensitive to USB issues than 1 KHz.

I bet the PCIe USB card will also bypass the AMD USB issues, too. A great escape hatch to your 8 KHz USB worries.

Thank you sir. Who knows on AMD woes, they also have PCIe 4.0 issues . I am torn between enjoying the mouse until I experience something since I'm moving to a new board but for $30 or whatever it certainly may be worth playing with and be an easy thing to move to new board. Thank you again.