I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

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axaro1
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 10 Jan 2021, 05:28

MaxTendency wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 04:59

That chart is kinda sloppy. Whoever made it looked at the highest number without even looking at the units.

Image

They looked at 61 and put 61mA in there when in reality it was 61uA for rest2 stage. Highest power draw on the 3360 according to the specs is 37mA.

Also has anyone commented on what "error rate" means? From what I can tell, it might just be cpi deviation.

Code: Select all

ashsii 08/04/2020
Ok I've done a bit of more research on what this 1% or 0.5% means
The datasheet specifically says "resolution error"
PMW3389 & PMW3360 have 1% resolution error. cpi is the resolution
So I guess at 5000 CPI, your mouse might be around 50 CPI off
That's a sensor comparison made by Mountain who produced the first 3370 mouse (Makalu 67).

̶Y̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶C̶P̶I̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶i̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶, the Makalu67 for example had 0%/0.6%/0.6%/1.6% deviation respectively for 400/800/1600/3200 DPI.

Mountain's marketing team definitely messed up this one :lol:
Last edited by axaro1 on 11 Jan 2021, 03:05, edited 1 time in total.
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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 10 Jan 2021, 05:50

axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 05:28
MaxTendency wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 04:59

That chart is kinda sloppy. Whoever made it looked at the highest number without even looking at the units.

Image

They looked at 61 and put 61mA in there when in reality it was 61uA for rest2 stage. Highest power draw on the 3360 according to the specs is 37mA.

Also has anyone commented on what "error rate" means? From what I can tell, it might just be cpi deviation.

Code: Select all

ashsii 08/04/2020
Ok I've done a bit of more research on what this 1% or 0.5% means
The datasheet specifically says "resolution error"
PMW3389 & PMW3360 have 1% resolution error. cpi is the resolution
So I guess at 5000 CPI, your mouse might be around 50 CPI off
That's a sensor comparison made by Mountain who produced the first 3370 mouse (Makalu 67).

Yes, error rate is related to CPI deviation, the Makalu67 for example had 0%/0.6%/0.6%/1.6% deviation respectively for 400/800/1600/3200 DPI.

Mountain's marketing team definitely messed up this one :lol:
what? no fiend already said that the deviation varies from copy to copy drastically those mean nothing nor should they even if there is no variation. as everyone should know cpi accuracy isn't everything. although there are correlation to circular accuracy as in actual accuracy. more importantly you should concern with whether it consistently stay at the same dpi of your choosing, as in whether it stays 1520 and never change a digit, instead of if it is within +/-5 of 1500, so having it jumps from 1495 to 1505 constantly is clearly inferior accuracy, even though your supposed "cpi accuracy" is higher.

TN_fun
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by TN_fun » 10 Jan 2021, 06:20

8000Hz is good, but what about typical Windows and high frequency problems. For example, even 1000Hz has such problems
https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/co ... n_dragged/

This is how the cpu-z and nvidia control panel work for me. Only at 1000 Hz, at 500 Hz, this is absolutely normal.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 11 Jan 2021, 00:12

MaxTendency wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 04:59
Also has anyone commented on what "error rate" means? From what I can tell, it might just be cpi deviation.
axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 05:28
Yes, error rate is related to CPI deviation, the Makalu67 for example had 0%/0.6%/0.6%/1.6% deviation respectively for 400/800/1600/3200 DPI.
It is not related to CPI deviation from nominal setting, as you describe it. That understanding is incorrect.

Resolution error : The average deviation of CPI across different movement speeds of the mouse (it is tested across tens of data points, going from really really slow motion to humanly impossible speeds). This number is, in theory, independent of CPI level completely - the error rate would be the same regardless of the mouse being set to 100cpi or 10000cpi.

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axaro1
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 11 Jan 2021, 03:27

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 00:12
Resolution error : The average deviation of CPI across different movement speeds of the mouse (it is tested across tens of data points, going from really really slow motion to humanly impossible speeds). This number is, in theory, independent of CPI level completely - the error rate would be the same regardless of the mouse being set to 100cpi or 10000cpi.
I don't know if I'm understanding it correctly, does it mean that sensors can suffer from speed based CPI deviation?

If a mouse is set to 800 CPI is behaving like 780 CPI at 1m/s and 820 CPI at 10m/s is this an example of 2.5% resolution error (assuming that ±2.5% is consistent across the entire CPI range)?
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Razer_TheFiend » 11 Jan 2021, 04:00

axaro1 wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 03:27
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 00:12
Resolution error : The average deviation of CPI across different movement speeds of the mouse (it is tested across tens of data points, going from really really slow motion to humanly impossible speeds). This number is, in theory, independent of CPI level completely - the error rate would be the same regardless of the mouse being set to 100cpi or 10000cpi.
I don't know if I'm understanding it correctly, does it mean that sensors can suffer from speed based CPI deviation?

If a mouse is set to 800 CPI is behaving like 780 CPI at 1m/s and 820 CPI at 10m/s is this an example of 2.5% resolution error (assuming that ±2.5% is consistent across the entire CPI range)?
Of course they can - no sensor is 100% consistent across all surfaces, movement speeds, CPI levels, sensor calibration and other parameters.

And you are correct - a 2.5% resolution error would mean that the CPI would fall within 780 and 820, depending on the movement speed. But the error rate is an "up to" number. You would have to go to extreme speeds to get to the maximum error rate.

To further qualify, note the above statement assumes 800 was the average "measured" CPI. Nominal CPI will almost never be exactly the same as measured CPI. That's the CPI divergence that your older post highlights - it is unrelated to the "resolution error" data point.

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axaro1
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by axaro1 » 11 Jan 2021, 04:12

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 04:00
Of course they can - no sensor is 100% consistent across all surfaces, movement speeds, CPI levels, sensor calibration and other parameters.

And you are correct - a 2.5% resolution error would mean that the CPI would fall within 780 and 820, depending on the movement speed. But the error rate is an "up to" number. You would have to go to extreme speeds to get to the maximum error rate.

To further qualify, note the above statement assumes 800 was the average "measured" CPI. Nominal CPI will almost never be exactly the same as measured CPI. That's the CPI divergence that your older post highlights - it is unrelated to the "resolution error" data point.
Alright, thank you for the explanation :)
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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 12 Jan 2021, 05:04

Razer_TheFiend wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 04:00
axaro1 wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 03:27
Razer_TheFiend wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 00:12
Resolution error : The average deviation of CPI across different movement speeds of the mouse (it is tested across tens of data points, going from really really slow motion to humanly impossible speeds). This number is, in theory, independent of CPI level completely - the error rate would be the same regardless of the mouse being set to 100cpi or 10000cpi.
I don't know if I'm understanding it correctly, does it mean that sensors can suffer from speed based CPI deviation?

If a mouse is set to 800 CPI is behaving like 780 CPI at 1m/s and 820 CPI at 10m/s is this an example of 2.5% resolution error (assuming that ±2.5% is consistent across the entire CPI range)?
Of course they can - no sensor is 100% consistent across all surfaces, movement speeds, CPI levels, sensor calibration and other parameters.

And you are correct - a 2.5% resolution error would mean that the CPI would fall within 780 and 820, depending on the movement speed. But the error rate is an "up to" number. You would have to go to extreme speeds to get to the maximum error rate.

To further qualify, note the above statement assumes 800 was the average "measured" CPI. Nominal CPI will almost never be exactly the same as measured CPI. That's the CPI divergence that your older post highlights - it is unrelated to the "resolution error" data point.
those terms make sense when you put it into context in here, but bringing them up independently elsewhere will still lead to confusion, as most people don't know what difference is between CPI vs resolution, or divergence vs error for that matter.

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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Jan 2021, 14:14

In addition to what Razer_TheFriend said:
axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 05:28
̶Y̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶C̶P̶I̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶i̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶, the Makalu67 for example had 0%/0.6%/0.6%/1.6% deviation respectively for 400/800/1600/3200 DPI.
"Deviation"? ;)

Is this really confirmed if no zero-calibration disclosure was posted?
Okay, time for me to open a Pandora Box.

<PandoraBox>

Who decides the zero calibration?

0% for 400dpi suggest that was the zero-calibration.

The problem with 400dpi as the zero-calibration is that it might already be mathematically off internally, but the lowness of 400dpi rounds it off to a very neat zero calibration, where in reality there's a bigger error for 400dpi.

What's to say, if 3200dpi or 1600dpi was the 0%, the others would be the offsets?

I'd like to know more about the zero-calibration, including all data inside mouse reset to 0 (via firmware) when starting 400dpi tests, because if you move a mouse 0.4/400dpi, the mouse "remembers" that even all the way to beginning of your benchmark! Even though co-ordinates are still (0,0)! So the 400dpi may actually have more error.

In theory, unplugging and plugging the mouse before moving the mouse, can do a fresh zero-calibrate (so it forgets its off setting like 0.4199468/400th or 0.33376/400th or whatever, from a previous mouse move. Since the previous mouse movement doesn't move your mouse to physically exact INTEGER/400th positions on a mousepad. Real world object positions are analog. So the internal mouse calculations may start your benchmark off by 0, e.g. 0.357/400th DPI, even though it reads 0 (instead of 0.357) via rawinput APIs. But then again, moving a mouse for first time often automatically runs some calibration code, so the fresh-plug benchmark may not be the best measure.

That's the tough thing -- no such thing as a "Zero Calibration Reset" API to reset all internal mouse registers back to 0, so all DPI tests stay accurate. In theory, a zero-reset API declares the current stationary mouse position as an integer (0,0) reference, allowing more accurate physical comparison to real world mouse. If one exists and was actually done as part of benchmarking, this should be part of the disclosure.

So, I admonish, who decided the zero-calibration to be 400dpi, without accounting for this?

It's fine that the errors are relative to each other -- and the benchmarks are in relativity accuracy -- but why was 0% assigned to 400dpi? An artificial claim of 400dpi being more accurate? Certainly a zero calibration might have been arbitrarily chosen (0%=400dpi) -- can someone publish the method of zero-calibration done during these earlier tests?

These certainly are good accuracy tests (at least for comparing relative-error) but I may disagree with the method of zero-calibration' without knowing more details about how they zero-calibrated before the benchmark, without erasing certain firmware registers back to zero for more accurate zero-calibration.

A zero-calibration disclosure is needed when claiming 3200dpi has an error relative to 400dpi, especially when we're on 3399's

Example Disclosure
It could be as simple as "This specific test does not confirm which specif8ic DPI is the most physically real world perfect relative to the actual mouse pad. We have simply chosen 400dpi as the reference (0%). All other percentages are simply deviations relative to 400dpi. In actuality, other DPIs may actually be more physically accurate on the realworld mousepad. However, this is beyond the scope of this specific mouse benchmark, this mouse benchmark simply measures deviations relative to other DPIs."

</PandoraBox>
ERROR 1001 at Line 1: Failed to to close the <PandoraBox> tag

P.S. Also, some games will do the same, e.g. previous mouse movement will result in some internal float/double being away from an integer, but being rounded up/down to nearest, injecting more differences between 400/800/1600/3200. This is why the proposed High Definition Mouse API outputs floating point mouse coordinates to encourage maximal precision and help solve this problem. Because it can be the software's fault rather than the mouse's fault for creating errors too, e.g. not respecting zero-calibration rules during integer mouse benchmarking. Sometimes 3200dpi is really worse, while at other times, 3200dpi is way more accurate -- depending on how properly the programming is done. The fact is, the more proper the programming (in both mouse and game), 3200dpi (at 1/8 sensitivity compared to 400dpi) can have less deviation than 400dpi.
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lyrill
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Re: I have the new Razer 8000 Hz prototype gaming mouse on my desk.

Post by lyrill » 17 Jan 2021, 13:14

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
12 Jan 2021, 14:14
In addition to what Razer_TheFriend said:
axaro1 wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 05:28
̶Y̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶C̶P̶I̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶i̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶, the Makalu67 for example had 0%/0.6%/0.6%/1.6% deviation respectively for 400/800/1600/3200 DPI.
"Deviation"? ;)

Is this really confirmed if no zero-calibration disclosure was posted?
Okay, time for me to open a Pandora Box.

<PandoraBox>

[...]
i am not familiar with people who are in those "esport fps" circles, but they are pretty dead set on using 400 dpi to eternity and their XL- deskpad cloth will do them just fine. it's literally like console players who will never admit there exist online pvp games, and they think pubg being nominated as goty in 2017 tga was an insult to their pristine console master race gaming.

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