Micro-stuttering / hitch & Frametime spikes issue

[1000WATT]

OK. an hour and a half playing for the side of the terrorists with a blue sword. And I got to this place. (with a save file, I wouldn't have aged 1.5 hours ).

I usually play single-player games at frequency 3.7. And you are right, stuttering cards are unacceptable in that place (jerking back and forth). I want to throw the pc out the window. But at a frequency of 5-5.2 everything becomes acceptable, there is a short-term stuttering, but without jerks.
Still we talked about

I own and played through it at launch. It's certainly a hard drive thrasher. This also affected consoles. It's the game; some UE4 games handle this better than others, but, no, UE4 doesn't seem to have a great streaming system either.

And these stutters have nothing to do with the hard drive. At the moment of the first boot from ssd of this part of the location, the stuttering is not very different from subsequent runs in circles. Reading from ssd does not happen, data is read from the RAM. But stuttering remains.

This is what I was talking about here

Some versions of assassin's creed and other games read data from ssd in a circle an infinite number of times. And they don't care what it is in RAM. There is really trash there.

[jorimt]

I usually play single-player games at frequency 3.7. And you are right, stuttering cards are unacceptable in that place (jerking back and forth). I want to throw the pc out the window. But at a frequency of 5-5.2 everything becomes acceptable, there is a short-term stuttering, but without jerks.

Yup, CPU overclock can sometimes alleviate asset load stutter (but not eliminate it).

And these stutters have nothing to do with the hard drive. At the moment of the first boot from ssd of this part of the location, the stuttering is not very different from subsequent runs in circles. Reading from ssd does not happen, data is read from the RAM. But stuttering remains.

But where does the data in the RAM originate from? The game files on the hard drive. Regardless of where the data is currently fetched in the pipeline, the asset load stutter is being caused by repeated bulk request of the game files.

The devs simply did a bad job with the streaming system, which is why I try to remind everyone to always to consider the game first before blaming their system for everything.

[1000WATT]

Yes, we are talking about practically the same thing.
There are 3 options.
1. Stuttering occurs at the time of the first read from the ssd, but there is no stuttering when reading from the memory again.
2. Stuttering occurs at the time of the first reading from ssd and also re-reading from the RAM.
3. Stuttering occurs at the moment of the first reading from ssd and also re-reading from ssd and so on ad infinitum, since the game ignores data in the RAM.
In our case, this is option 2.

jorimt But where does the data in the RAM originate from?
When I say that the hard drive has nothing to do with it. I am speaking literally. You can put the entire files of this game in the RAM, but the stuttering will not stop. On the other hand, there are games where such a method will remove stuttering.

In our case, this is exactly
jorimt Regardless of where the data is currently fetched in the pipeline, the asset load stutter is being caused by repeated bulk request of the game files.

[jorimt]

Yes, we are talking about practically the same thing.

Agreed, semantics.

There are 3 options.
1. Stuttering occurs at the time of the first read from the ssd, but there is no stuttering when reading from the memory again.
2. Stuttering occurs at the time of the first reading from ssd and also re-reading from the RAM.
3. Stuttering occurs at the moment of the first reading from ssd and also re-reading from ssd and so on ad infinitum, since the game ignores data in the RAM.
In our case, this is option 2.

jorimt But where does the data in the RAM originate from?
When I say that the hard drive has nothing to do with it. I am speaking literally. You can put the entire files of this game in the RAM, but the stuttering will not stop. On the other hand, there are games where such a method will remove stuttering.

In our case, this is exactly
jorimt Regardless of where the data is currently fetched in the pipeline, the asset load stutter is being caused by repeated bulk request of the game files.

Aware, but if the files do indeed stay on the RAM drive in this case, then similar to what you noted, all I can think is:

1) The data stays on the RAM, but it is being re-requested from the hard drive without actually swapping data, which would cause it to reload (this would just be a flat out bug), OR...
2) The data stays on the RAM, but instead of caching, it is re-requested and reloaded within the RAM every time anyway, OR...
3) They are performing some sort of unnecessary swaps with the page file, OR...
4) They're trying to load so much data at once, not even the RAM drive is fast enough to keep up without hitching (OR maybe a combo of some/all 1-4).

That said, I'm not a dev and I don't have access to the source code, so all I can do is speculate.

I think we can all agree the game is obviously just messed up in this respect, and will never be addressed directly by the devs

[jorimt]

do you consider the frametime graph I captured here normal? or is there anything unusual? thanks in advance for any input.

phpBB [video]

I finally got my hands on a 3080, so I've recently been replaying this on my LG 48CX, and if you're using DX12, I had forgot (as I was previously playing it on a 1080 Ti in DX11 only) this particular game has a certain stutter that can potentially be reduced with the below fix:
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Contr ... d_hardware

No guarantees, but worth a shot. It reduced mine. This doesn't include things such as menu transition stutter though, just some of those little blips that regularly occur during traversal.

[depatere]

@jorimt, @Chief Blur Buster

I want to thank both of you on your extensive replies here in this thread. It cleared quite a few things up for me.
I found this thread in the search of the best experience I can find in games. I am very prone to hitching and input delay.

About a month ago I upgraded to a 5950X build where I would think I wouldn't get any better experience, in combination with my G-sync monitor 278Q Asus e. I was wrong. I had alot of hitching problems and after a while, I think it was due to the 2 CCX architecture and the way the boost clock is constantly switching between cores.

So, I sold the whole build and went with a 10900k build - I even upgraded the PSU to RM1000x to be sure it wasn't my old one.
Although the hitching is alot better, I still experience it in all games once in a while ( other than the usual interaction with map, or inventory etc ) - for example, I can be raiding with 30 man in World of Warcraft with everything running smooth and a hitch might occur during the fight somewhere for example. I even upgraded to a 3080, but to no advance. It did make my frames go much higher tho.


If I read your comments here, the loading assets stuff from the SSD makes alot of sense, but it doesn't apply in this usecase I think? Is it normal to have a hitch like this once in a while in a fight or something?


Additionally, I have a few other questions that would be great if you knowledgeable guys would help me with. It would ease my mind atleast knowing its normal or either knowing the reason or workaround for it.


1. I noticed that enabling Ultra Low Latency to 'On', the frametime hitches were much more occuring and at random moments in WoW, than with 'Off' - Perhaps its an issue in WoW itself, but these are the highest my hitches ever get, the spike really goes way up. Doesn't happen with 'Off'


2. Footage on the following seems conflicting, there is a YouTube channel that recommends that one should put the ingame V-Sync to 'On' aswell as use the in-game framelimiter instead of using the NVCP V-Sync and RTSS framelimiter. His reasoning behind it is that ingame options could have more optimizations with it. Is this true ? Or would you still recommend your options for the best experience without hitching and input delay?


3. Are there any steps that you guys would follow to lessen hitching and input delay on Windows? There are ALOT of options out there, from Process Lassoing, to unparking CPU cores. Some might be outdated. I currently have set the power management plan to ultimate performance for sure as that is known webwide.

[jorimt]

If I read your comments here, the loading assets stuff from the SSD makes alot of sense, but it doesn't apply in this usecase I think? Is it normal to have a hitch like this once in a while in a fight or something?

It's normal to have some hitches at some point, period.

1. I noticed that enabling Ultra Low Latency to 'On', the frametime hitches were much more occuring and at random moments in WoW, than with 'Off' - Perhaps its an issue in WoW itself, but these are the highest my hitches ever get, the spike really goes way up. Doesn't happen with 'Off'

Settings that reduce the render queue, such as LLM, can have that effect in certain circumstances. It's heavily system/game-dependent.

As stated in an FAQ entry of my article:

What exactly does the “Maximum pre-rendered frames” setting do again? Doesn’t it affect input lag?

NOTE: As of Nvidia driver version 436.02, “Maximum pre-rendered frames” is now labeled “Low Latency Mode,” with “On” being equivalent to MPRF “1.”

While this setting was already covered in part 14 “Optimal G-SYNC Settings & Conclusion” under a section titled “Maximum Pre-rendered Frames: Depends,” let’s break it down again…

The pre-rendered frames queue is effectively a CPU-side throttle for average framerate, and the “Maximum pre-rendered frames” setting controls the queue size.

Higher values increase the maximum amount of pre-rendered frames able to generate at once, which, in turn, typically improves frametime performance and allows higher average framerates on weaker CPUs by giving them more time to prepare frames before handing them off to the GPU to be completed.

So while the “Maximum pre-rendered frames” setting does introduce more buffers at higher values, its original intended function is less about being a direct input lag modifier (as is commonly assumed), and more about allowing weaker systems to run demanding games more smoothly, and reach higher average framerates than they would otherwise be able to (if at all).

On a system where the power of the CPU and GPU are more matched, a “Maximum pre-rendered frames” value of “1” is typically recommended, and usually causes little to no negative effects, of which would be evident by a lower average framerate and/or increased frametime spikes.

Finally, it should be noted that the NVCP’s MPRF setting isn’t respected by every game, and even where it is, MPRF results may vary per system and/or per game, so user-experimentation is required.

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2. Footage on the following seems conflicting, there is a YouTube channel that recommends that one should put the ingame V-Sync to 'On' aswell as use the in-game framelimiter instead of using the NVCP V-Sync and RTSS framelimiter. His reasoning behind it is that ingame options could have more optimizations with it. Is this true ? Or would you still recommend your options for the best experience without hitching and input delay?

Depends on the situation. When used with G-SYNC (I assuming you are?) NVCP vs. in-game V-SYNC typically doesn't matter, but as stated in my article:
https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ttings/14/

Nvidia Control Panel V-SYNC vs. In-game V-SYNC

While NVCP V-SYNC has no input lag reduction over in-game V-SYNC, and when used with G-SYNC + FPS limit, it will never engage, some in-game V-SYNC solutions may introduce their own frame buffer or frame pacing behaviors, enable triple buffer V-SYNC automatically (not optimal for the native double buffer of G-SYNC), or simply not function at all, and, thus, NVCP V-SYNC is the safest bet.

There are rare occasions, however, where V-SYNC will only function with the in-game option enabled, so if tearing or other anomalous behavior is observed with NVCP V-SYNC (or visa-versa), each solution should be tried until said behavior is resolved.

As for external limiters vs. in-game limiters, external limiters such as RTSS will have slightly higher input lag, but steadier frametime performance, whereas in-game will have slightly lower input lag, but less steady frametime performance. It's a tradeoff, and usage can depend on the given game and user preference.

3. Are there any steps that you guys would follow to lessen hitching and input delay on Windows? There are ALOT of options out there, from Process Lassoing, to unparking CPU cores. Some might be outdated. I currently have set the power management plan to ultimate performance for sure as that is known webwide.

A lot of the more extreme suggestions are either diminished in returns, or do little to nothing in my experience. That said, I unpark my cores, have all background programs, excess services, and overlays disabled while gaming, and ensure my SSD/HDD remain trimmed/defragmented regularly, but that's about it for me.

Along with what I do, if you want to go further, you can disable all power options in the bios, overclock your CPU, GPU, and RAM, and set your CPU to a fixed frequency. But it won't get rid of all hitching in all instances.

I'm sure others here could provide more of their own suggestions in this respect.

[depatere]

A lot of the more extreme suggestions are either diminished in returns, or do little to nothing in my experience. That said, I unpark my cores, have all background programs, excess services, and overlays disabled while gaming, and ensure my SSD/HDD remain trimmed/defragmented regularly, but that's about it for me.

Along with what I do, if you want to go further, you can disable all power options in the bios, overclock your CPU, GPU, and RAM, and set your CPU to a fixed frequency. But it won't get rid of all hitching in all instances.

I'm sure others here could provide more of their own suggestions in this respect.

Thank you very much for your reply.
I indeed see what you mean with a more consistant frametime graph using the RTSS framecap limiter, this is nice.

Currently, I have a 10900K on 5.2Ghz fixed frequency and my RAM on 4600Mhz CL18 - running stable, paired with a 3080 RTX.
As per your recommendation, it would be advised to run Ultra Low Latency on 'On' (For the games that would benefit from this) seeing as the CPU shouldn't be the bottleneck here right?

I've also read that unparking cores should not be needed anymore in recent Windows versions, but you would recommend to still do this with the utility found on the internet?


Would you like to elaborate more on the steps you take, I would very much like to limit the hitches I get. (I might upload a video of the hitches I currently have, so it gives you an idea of what kind of hitches they are)

You have a list of Windows services you disable? I think there was a list of unnecessairy ones.

You mention you trim/defragment your SSD's. I currently have one 2TB Adata XPG SG8200 PRO nvme drive that I use.
How many times would you defragment/trim the drive? Also recommended to update the firmware without bricking it?


Thank you!

[jorimt]

As per your recommendation, it would be advised to run Ultra Low Latency on 'On' (For the games that would benefit from this) seeing as the CPU shouldn't be the bottleneck here right?

If you think you're getting more stutter with it on in the given game, drop LLM to "On" instead, and if you're still getting it with "On," disable it. As for LLM "On" vs. "Ultra," if you're using G-SYNC, the only known difference between the two, is latter sets an auto FPS limit slightly below the refresh rate in supported games, and the former doesn't; both set MPRF to "1."

I've also read that unparking cores should not be needed anymore in recent Windows versions, but you would recommend to still do this with the utility found on the internet?

I have an 8700k currently, but it could depend on your CPU, the brand/architecture, and what you have your power plan set to. I think some plans disable core parking and frequency scaling outright.

Would you like to elaborate more on the steps you take, I would very much like to limit the hitches I get. (I might upload a video of the hitches I currently have, so it gives you an idea of what kind of hitches they are)

Not an exhaustive list, but where Windows settings/base configuration is concerned:

- All "Background Apps" under Win 10 Settings > Privacy > Background apps set to "Off."
- Xbox Game Bar set to "Off" under Win 10 Settings > Gaming > Xbox Game Bar.
- Game Mode set to "On" under Win 10 Settings > Gaming > Game Mode.
- All startup items under Task Manager > Startup "Disabled."
- All unnecessary entries under the Task Scheduler "Disabled."
- ParkControl (effectively Process Lasso lite) open when gaming with "Bitsum Highest Performance" set, which disables CPU core parking and frequency scaling.
- "Prefer Maximum Performance" set in the NVCP per game profile, where necessary.
- Sometimes, but not always disable FSO per game exe.
- All game/program overlays (sans afterburner, if I'm using it) disabled, where applicable.
- No browsers or non-game apps open while gaming.

I don't currently overclock any of my components or have any particular bios configuration myself though.

You have a list of Windows services you disable? I think there was a list of unnecessairy ones.

Depends on what you have installed on your system. Many of the Windows services are non-optional, or are necessary for regular system operation.

You mention you trim/defragment your SSD's. I currently have one 2TB Adata XPG SG8200 PRO nvme drive that I use.
How many times would you defragment/trim the drive? Also recommended to update the firmware without bricking it?

For my SSDs, I have no set schedule. I trim when I think about it. They don't need it often. As for my HDDs, I occasionally check to see if they need it, and then perform it if they do.

And regarding SSD driver/firmware, my 1TB 970 Evo Plus and 500GB 960 Evo are updated with the latest. That said, I have the majority of my game library on a 6TB WD Black HDD, and only load games with the longer load times on my SSDs, as, again, current PC games take advantage of nothing else with an SSD.

Beyond that, it all really comes down to what non-game processes are running concurrent with the game, and what frequency/power saving behaviors are in place for components such as the CPU/GPU. The rest is typically down to game engine and/or netcode performance and quirks, which can vary heavily, and are often outside of the user's control to fully affect.

[depatere]

Thank you once more for your extensive reply.

I will definitely take this and use it myself.
I never thought we needed to do maintenance on the SSD, but will schedule it once in a while.

Just looking for the smoothest experience out there!
If you don't mind, I'll try to capture some Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay so you can analyse if the hitches are get, are normal for someone to get Big thanks already