USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8638
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 17:58

schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 14:51
should've sent me one since i have lowest ram latency in the world and without doubt most stable setup ( 10k euros + in low latency equipment ;) )
If you have a good cirriculum-vitae of past experiences doing this stuff, you can contact Razer_TheFriend on Twitter. He's sending 'em out to select researchers and game developers, in exchange for good hard data. It's a big goal of getting industry ready.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 14:51
Great, please make it in C++ and post source code online, MouseTester is very bad and outdated using C# on 32bit platform(WoW64)
Good suggestion, however...

I'm doing it in HTML5 using PointerEvents + PointerLock. Thanks to the way Chrome does Stadia, HTML5 in some brands of browsers can now do data as accurately as MouseTester now (1000Hz+rawinput). Far easier and fancier graphs than MouseTester. Mind you, there's bugs being able to run 8000Hz, but it's perfectly fine at 1000Hz. Eventually I'll coordinate Razer+Chrome team to fix the 8000Hz Chromium bugs, as I've long trailblazed the W3C stuff to make their browsers more and more TestUFO compatible; sending lots of BugZillas and CRbugs, that fixed issues.

_______

<Why_HTML5>

BTW, this is a good time for me to go on a (temporary) topic sidetrack to explain why I am doing it in sometimes-imprecise HTML5 and not precision C++. (That said, browsers are getting amazing in some departments thanks to other influences such as Google improving compatibility with 1000Hz gaming mice in Chrome due to Stadia).

You have to realize how Blur Busters work. I'm the one who invented high-Hz-compatible "one click show-and-tell motion demos". I'm doing the same for mouse tests. My goals are different. I'll sacrifice a little bit of C++ precision to have one click convenience to massmarket. 1000-times more popular is more valuable to Blur Busters Prime Directive.

Blur Busters is a hobby-turned-startup with two lines of businesses

Blur Busters is a two-lines-of-business hobby-turned-startup. Blur Busters Media goals (advanced-mainstream microphone dropping factory) is different from the Blur Busters Laboratory (working with manufacturers). I newbie-ify my language in the Blur Busters Media department. I still write too advanced, but it's branching out over the years. Everyone tends to respect that, and sometimes it means I write Popular Science Articles instead of Harvard University Thesis. Other researchers can cherrypick my Hertz Einstein ideas and write their own Thesises or Papers like more than 20+ different groups of researchers wrote peer reviewed papers crediting me or my business (most recently, Samsung researchers in September, about a new motion blur measurement standard).

Buddy, TestUFO has almost a hundred million lifetime visits worldwide from 2012-2020, being the world's most popular one-click motion demo to silence a lot of myths (descendants of "Humans Can't See 30fps Versus 60fps"). I'm going to bring that to mouse testing. And y'know, in my bandwidth traffic, Asia region has an unusual workday traffic pattern on TestUFO. China/Taiwan/HongKong/Korea/Japan has a strong cyclic traffic indicative of many hundreds/thousands companies using my TestUFO as part of their work, a cyclic pattern found nowhere else (no other country). It's so strong that when worldwide bandwidth is averaged, the weekday workday cyclics contributed by Asia still shows up clearly in the worldwide bandwidth average.

Blur Busters is happy working in this manner; we don't give fish; we teach people to fish. That's why Blur Busters does not mass-test monitors (except Special Editions), but dozens of others use Blur Busters inventions to mass-test monitors. I don't compete against the people who use my inventions. I've taught a lot of people to fish. I dislike it when people criticize how Blur Busters functions (sorry) when people demand I mass-test monitors or do something else more researcher/scientist-appropriate. Yes, I long wish to be a YouTuber, but being a deafie -- born deaf but with a brain able to emulate a motion test (like a motion-photogenic logic in my brain, mentally looking at the rainbow artifacts, plasma contouring artifacts, GtG artifacts, persistence artifacts, optical illusions, etc) before writing the motion test -- I find it much easier to blog and show-n-tell via other means. Instead, I rather incubate the path, and any demands & disrespect will just be unceremoniously deleted. If you want to create a C++ MouseTester, be my guest. That is not the Blur Busters mission directive to give away fish. Whether it's ApertureGrille or RTINGS or TFTCentral or LinusTechTips or multiple monitor manufacturers, they're deriving a lot of their tests based off what Blur Busters freely inspired them.

Even many startups have been inspired by Blur Busters (Even practical nausea-free VR arrived a few years earlier than expected thanks to TestUFO, from a paid contract between myself and the Oculus Kickstarter completed long before the Facebook days). Zero Oculus or Facebook stock/options ever. Don't mind. If that means I leave lots of money on the table, nearly everybody respects that, and most businesses approaching me at the beginning knows to respect that too. Ever my lawyer remarked that it's pretty clear that it's something commendable and respectworthy, even though it is metaphorically tantamount to a cultural difference between businesses in different countries. (Yeah, I've already had to defend my way of business function. Fortunately, it's nothing involving any big companies -- they are so experienced and know people like me and work with many people like me already, and they love working with me). Whether it's about a mouse, or a 240Hz strobe backlight, or a quadruple-digit refresh rate prototype, or troubleshooting why their shutter glasses doesn't work well on a specific display, or creating a custom TestUFO for their in-house use, or teaching a class at a manufacturer across the Pacific or Atlantic, or other meritworthy contribution to the refresh rate race to retina refresh rates.

P.S. Somebody else? Sure. Please write a C++ opensource version of MouseTester and put it on github. Perhaps I'll contribute GitHub / BugZilla Issue reports, and maybe a couple of source code commits.

P.P.S. My Special Edition article (at least Part #1) is focussed on mainstream photographic-proof microphone dropping to stop the 8000Hz-laughing audience before next steps -- before more scientific results in Part #2 onwards. The Blur Busters Way is our forumula. Thus, there is little MouseTester-style results in Part #1; just to temper expectations.

</Why_HTML5>
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8638
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 18:00

Posts about mouse tester software merits moved to Debates about Multiple Mouse Tester Software. No further discussion about mouse tester software/apps/packages -- and their pros/cons -- in this specific thread please, put discussion in that other thread there. Thanks!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

howiec
Posts: 144
Joined: 17 Jun 2014, 15:36

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by howiec » 25 Oct 2020, 20:15

If only Intel / AMD offered a dedicated a USB "channel" or controller to 2 or more devices (e.g. mouse + kb vs all others) to mitigate this contention issue.

I'm sure that if they wanted they could even implement a method of independent "channels" within the same silicon chip to achieve similar results and save on multiple component costs.

Hopefully the desire of this kind of optimization reaches the designers. I'm sure whoever implements this first will see increased sales due to gaming being such a huge and growing industry.

Anyone have any contacts with the designers or marketing folks? haha

schizobeyondpills
Posts: 84
Joined: 06 Jun 2020, 04:00

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by schizobeyondpills » 25 Oct 2020, 20:23

howiec wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:15
If only Intel / AMD offered a dedicated a USB "channel" or controller to 2 or more devices (e.g. mouse + kb vs all others) to mitigate this contention issue.

I'm sure that if they wanted they could even implement a method of independent "channels" within the same silicon chip to achieve similar results and save on multiple component costs.

Hopefully the desire of this kind of optimization reaches the designers. I'm sure whoever implements this first will see increased sales due to gaming being such a huge and growing industry.

Anyone have any contacts with the designers or marketing folks? haha
There are dedicated USB ports/channels for direct CPU connection as well as BIOS flash USB ports that have lower latency, also the problem is in the OS, not the ports or USB controllers, windows 10 is just bad, api design, real time latency of anything, compilation, drivers, the whole stack.

u expect alot from OS that comes with candy crush packed and pinned in start menu.

here from one of if not the most knowledgeable people in software architecture (Agner Fog)
64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac. This system has six integer registers and eight XMM registers
for parameter transfer. This means that a maximum of 14 parameters can be transferred in
registers in 64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac, while 64 bit Windows allows only 4.
https://www.agner.org/optimize/calling_conventions.pdf

howiec
Posts: 144
Joined: 17 Jun 2014, 15:36

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by howiec » 25 Oct 2020, 21:00

schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:23
There are dedicated USB ports/channels for direct CPU connection as well as BIOS flash USB ports that have lower latency, also the problem is in the OS, not the ports or USB controllers, windows 10 is just bad, api design, real time latency of anything, compilation, drivers, the whole stack.

u expect alot from OS that comes with candy crush packed and pinned in start menu.

here from one of if not the most knowledgeable people in software architecture (Agner Fog)
64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac. This system has six integer registers and eight XMM registers
for parameter transfer. This means that a maximum of 14 parameters can be transferred in
registers in 64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac, while 64 bit Windows allows only 4.
https://www.agner.org/optimize/calling_conventions.pdf
Yes, I expect a lot because MS has the largest market share and it is in their best interest to cement it by improving it in this regard. I don't underestimate their capability to do so when they know this and have the resources.

So are you saying that in my Z370 system with the single Intel USB controller that I won't have any contention effects between an 8kHz mouse and a 4kHz keyboard?

Of course the OS and other SW need to improve but unless you're saying there's not another weak link with the current state of HW implementation, we need both!

PS - Technically I do have ASMedia controller ports but they aren't easily accessible (1 is USB-C too) AND I don't know of any way to edit any interrupt moderation values on those controllers although I'd probably stick the kb into the ASMedia one.

schizobeyondpills
Posts: 84
Joined: 06 Jun 2020, 04:00

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by schizobeyondpills » 25 Oct 2020, 21:31

howiec wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:00
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:23
There are dedicated USB ports/channels for direct CPU connection as well as BIOS flash USB ports that have lower latency, also the problem is in the OS, not the ports or USB controllers, windows 10 is just bad, api design, real time latency of anything, compilation, drivers, the whole stack.

u expect alot from OS that comes with candy crush packed and pinned in start menu.

here from one of if not the most knowledgeable people in software architecture (Agner Fog)
64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac. This system has six integer registers and eight XMM registers
for parameter transfer. This means that a maximum of 14 parameters can be transferred in
registers in 64 bit Linux, BSD and Mac, while 64 bit Windows allows only 4.
https://www.agner.org/optimize/calling_conventions.pdf
Yes, I expect a lot because MS has the largest market share and it is in their best interest to cement it by improving it in this regard. I don't underestimate their capability to do so when they know this and have the resources.

So are you saying that in my Z370 system with the single Intel USB controller that I won't have any contention effects between an 8kHz mouse and a 4kHz keyboard?

Of course the OS and other SW need to improve but unless you're saying there's not another weak link with the current state of HW implementation, we need both!

PS - Technically I do have ASMedia controller ports but they aren't easily accessible (1 is USB-C too) AND I don't know of any way to edit any interrupt moderation values on those controllers although I'd probably stick the kb into the ASMedia one.
M$ has a monopoly and no one can take it away, never happening due to how much legacy code there is in software/drivers/compatiblity etc.

Its in their best interest to improve it for all users, not someone chasing sub milisecond jitter/latency removal. thats the 0.00001% of their users who will never leave the OS due to videogames for such integrity all being on windows.
their resources are better spent on something else, like white theme redesign :D

everything else you said can be summed up like this: there are upper and lower layers of computing, you can fix a bottleneck on different layers, so to fix MS OS/driver bottleneck you get a better USB controller, or you can fix your OS/drivers. doing both gets u exponentional perf.

your Intel controller wont have any contention on optimized linux, on windows however that uses generic drivers not even compiled for your CPU or optimized at all, yeah good luck

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8638
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 21:48

Whoa, I'm a Microsoft Partner with NDA. I've long got a Windows 10 build capable of unlocked 1000Hz on my computer (That tidbit of information, I am allowed to disclose now). That stuff took me dozens of hours of negotiating with various Microsoft stakeholders and getting a few vendor buy-ins to move the needle. Freebie gift to the industry. You're welcome.

So, lay off the blankie "Micro$oft" bashing, bud. It doesn't do me a service -- I stay in the good graces of all parties where possible.

Yes, I diss specific things Microsoft has done but I surgically target my diss these days now. Various limitations like mixed-Hz multimonitor which I continue to be annoyed by. But I am getting things done in the Windows 10 precision department there to an extent. Assumption = ASSoutofUandME.

Second strike by a forum member putting a dollar sign in Microsoft mention is a forum tempban.
If you wish to go detente/frenemy/coldwar, fine. But no blanketbash like that. 'mkay?

Cheers. 🍻
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

schizobeyondpills
Posts: 84
Joined: 06 Jun 2020, 04:00

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by schizobeyondpills » 25 Oct 2020, 21:52

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:48
Whoa, I'm a Microsoft Partner with NDA. I've long got a Windows 10 build capable of unlocked 1000Hz on my computer (That tidbit of information, I am allowed to disclose now). That stuff took me dozens of hours of negotiating with various Microsoft stakeholders and getting a few vendor buy-ins to move the needle. Freebie gift to the industry. You're welcome.

So, lay off the blankie "Micro$oft" bashing, bud. It doesn't do me a service -- I stay in the good graces of all parties where possible.

Yes, I diss specific things Microsoft has done but I surgically target my diss these days now. Various limitations like mixed-Hz multimonitor which I continue to be annoyed by. But I am getting things done in the Windows 10 precision department there to an extent. Assumption = ASSoutofUandME.

Second strike by a forum member putting a dollar sign in Microsoft mention is a forum tempban.
If you wish to go detente/frenemy/coldwar, fine. But no blanketbash like that. 'mkay?

Cheers. 🍻
My keyboard lagged, not my fault about $ sign in Microssoft. its the driver. Does your unlocked win10 build also allow you to set I/O priority of things to some nice undocumented values even hidden from documentation? like 4, or say 7? maybe 8?

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 8638
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 21:54

schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:52
My keyboard lagged, not my fault about $ sign in Microssoft.
Just don't do it again. Nobody wants to undo any advocacy work done by Blur Busters, after all.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:52
Does your unlocked win10 build also allow you to set I/O priority of things to some nice undocumented values even hidden from documentation? like 4, or say 7? maybe 8?
Nothing complete/committed I am allowed to talk about now.

Oh and it's Blur Busters was one of the many itty-bitty contributor stakeholders that made VRR appear in the XBox one console generation earlier than planned. Their team (including Brad Rosetti) compliments Blur Busters in really popularizing the VRR and 120Hz stuff that paved the way for bosses being convinced about practical inclusion in XBox.

If you're brave enough to scroll my LinkedIn to the bottom, you'll observe I've worked in many bureaucracies like government (Government of Canada), electricity company (Hydro One), and a big-five Canadian bank (BMO, 5 years), before Blur Busters turned from hobby to full time. So I've got the +XP points as Bureacracy Red Tape Lawnmower. Achievement Unlocked FTW!

Now... Back on topic. ;)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

schizobeyondpills
Posts: 84
Joined: 06 Jun 2020, 04:00

Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by schizobeyondpills » 25 Oct 2020, 21:59

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:54
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:52
My keyboard lagged, not my fault about $ sign in Microssoft.
Just don't do it again. Nobody wants to undo any advocacy work done by Blur Busters, after all.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:52
Does your unlocked win10 build also allow you to set I/O priority of things to some nice undocumented values even hidden from documentation? like 4, or say 7? maybe 8?
Nothing complete/committed I am allowed to talk about now.

Oh and it's Blur Busters was one of the many itty-bitty contributor stakeholders that made VRR appear in the XBox one console generation earlier than planned. Their team (including Brad Rosetti) compliments Blur Busters in really popularizing the VRR and 120Hz stuff that paved the way for bosses being convinced about practical inclusion in XBox.

If you're brave enough to scroll my LinkedIn to the bottom, you'll observe I've worked in many bureaucracies like government (Government of Canada), electricity company (Hydro One), and a big-five Canadian bank (BMO, 5 years), before Blur Busters turned from hobby to full time. So I've got the +XP points as Bureacracy Red Tape Lawnmower. Achievement Unlocked FTW!

Now... Back on topic. ;)
http://www.mrtweaks.com/reg10.htm
this is both on topic and relevant to secret NDA stuff, i hope there's more documented and actually without any hidden things (like this reg i posted being multiplied by 100 inside the driver) tweaks possible for new unlocked 1000Hz build, hope you request this with NDA guys at Microsoft.

Post Reply