USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

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purist
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by purist » 25 Oct 2020, 22:04

dir€ctx

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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Oct 2020, 22:12

purist wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 22:04
dir€ctx
ROTFL about Dye-Euro-Ex but fortunately, only 6 mentions on Google, so this hasn't established a derogatory meaning, so I put this squarely in the "Humor" department. You can use your original account instead. No, Icognito & VPNs won't hide you.

schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:59
http://www.mrtweaks.com/reg10.htm
this is both on topic and relevant to secret NDA stuff, i hope there's more documented and actually without any hidden things (like this reg i posted being multiplied by 100 inside the driver) tweaks possible for new unlocked 1000Hz build, hope you request this with NDA guys at Microsoft.
All good stuff, but don't bother. It's not even that far yet, not even unlockable in a build you can download to the computer.

However, the discussions started when Microsoft emailed me from my public feedback report, also linked from Windows 512Hz limitation, and took more than a year of patient back and fourth discussions/negotations/buyins/etc.
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howiec
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by howiec » 25 Oct 2020, 22:32

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 22:12
However, the discussions started when Microsoft emailed me from my public feedback report, also linked from Windows 512Hz limitation, and took more than a year of patient back and fourth discussions/negotations/buyins/etc.
Dude, kudos to your efforts man. Can't be easy "convincing" the establishment.

I'm sure it's tough to influence people who don't know of or don't believe in the benefits, or who simply aren't interested in (or lack the grit for) improving the status quo.

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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Oct 2020, 03:58

howiec wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 22:32
Dude, kudos to your efforts man. Can't be easy "convincing" the establishment.

I'm sure it's tough to influence people who don't know of or don't believe in the benefits, or who simply aren't interested in (or lack the grit for) improving the status quo.
Thanks. Sometimes I have to ELI5 some Blur Busters stuff at simple language, but that's intentional at Blur Busters Media. Some big corporate departments can't handle Blur Busters Laboratoryspeak, so I switch to ELI5 mode. It's totally different from how I naturally write in forums.

Researchers sometimes roll eyes at how I water down some of my Blur Busters language to some people, but it's quite wholly intentional. I can do a whole class just on one single TestUFO test, to teach different angles about it. But I can also multitask and instantly jump to helping a researcher writing a properly formatted white paper or a properly RFC2119 formatted specification (like XEP-0301 specification work for XMPP extension).

Introductory concepts to the bosses and frontline engineers. Then the right advanced engineers become interested, and start to realize how complex the Pandora Box is. Then I properly sing the Blur Busters song. And some department purchases an esports monitor as part of QA testing, and so on. Many dominoes involved. Mudane things like that.

Someday I need to create 1-minute YouTube easy explainer clips (but my being born deaf is somewhat of a barrier to that). I'm working around some solutions for that, but it's on Valve Time.

I flow with the skills I enjoy doing my work with. Whether it's focussing on HTML5/JavaScript/C#, or writing very reasonable walls of text that's somewhere far beyond LinusTechTips, but far simpler than a paywalled thesis paper. I reach far more people than that paywalled paper, but far less people per article than a LinusTechTips video. It still tips enough dominoes that other researchers want to continue/expand upon my work (in a more scientific-researcher sense). I'd happily indirectly Popular-Science incubate 10 other papers rather than directly 1'proper paper myself even though I have the skills to format one in the proper format. I still will occasionally be the direct author/co-author sometimes but more frequently I just freely incubate the ideas now. Heck, some specific mesmerizing TestUFO tests already generate their own thesis-equivalents. The formula has worked thus far, though I, too, have to adapt to the YouTube Generation eventually.
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howiec
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by howiec » 26 Oct 2020, 04:56

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 03:58
XEP-0301 specification work for XMPP extension).
Then the right engineers become interested, and start to realize how complex the Pandora Box is, and some department purchases an esports monitor as part of QA testing, and so on. Many dominoes involved.

Someday I need to create 1-minute YouTube easy explainer clips (but my being born deaf is somewhat of a barrier to that). I'm working around some solutions for that, but it's on Valve Time.
Wow, even updating & improving RTT. Nice!

Yeah, a 1min explainer for the layman always helps promote understanding but I guess priorities first and I think articles on your site already do a good job of explaining some of the fundamentals.

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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by O_O » 27 Oct 2020, 07:51

schizobeyondpills wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:32
Windows kernel timer has a limit of 0.5 ms interrupt intervals.
What does that have to do with 8K polling rate?
schizobeyondpills wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:32
why do you believe you can plug anything of 8000hz or more in 99.99999% of systems and expect no perf degradation? and think it will work properly.
Percentage is going to be lower than that I think but just like you generally wouldn't pair a top end graphics card with a low end CPU, 8K isn't for everyone and some programs may choke.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:32
pixart sensors per their specsheets have a temperature operating temp of 40deg c, thats junction inside not on top where its cooler.
No, 40C is maximum recommended ambient temperature, the temperature of the air near the sensor while absolute ambient temperature is likely 15C higher than that. USB polling will be taken care of by the MCU which might be a LPC11U3... which has an ambient specification of -40C to 85C and a maximum junction temperature of 150C.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 14:51
temperature scaling is exponentional with frequency
Temperature is a result of power dissipation and dynamic power is proportional as voltage is constant.
schizobeyondpills wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 14:51
windows time (not timer) source occurs at 0.5ms intervals.
This is the system timer and operates from around 0.5ms to 15.6ms, it is not windows time.
howiec wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:00
PS - Technically I do have ASMedia controller ports but they aren't easily accessible (1 is USB-C too) AND I don't know of any way to edit any interrupt moderation values on those controllers although I'd probably stick the kb into the ASMedia one.
Would imagine just parse the PCI BAR similar to Intel XHCI

howiec
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by howiec » 27 Oct 2020, 14:10

O_O wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 07:51
howiec wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:00
PS - Technically I do have ASMedia controller ports but they aren't easily accessible (1 is USB-C too) AND I don't know of any way to edit any interrupt moderation values on those controllers although I'd probably stick the kb into the ASMedia one.
Would imagine just parse the PCI BAR similar to Intel XHCI
The IMOD register/mechanism is specific to Intel's implementation AFAIK.
Also, I remembered why I can't plug in my kb into the ASMedia controller.... it's cuz it uses 2 ports which I guess I could get around if I can use some sort of 2-to-1 adapter or something.

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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Oct 2020, 19:20

O_O wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 07:51
schizobeyondpills wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:32
pixart sensors per their specsheets have a temperature operating temp of 40deg c, thats junction inside not on top where its cooler.
No, 40C is maximum recommended ambient temperature, the temperature of the air near the sensor while absolute ambient temperature is likely 15C higher than that.
The sensor rate is only slightly higher than earlier mice, 16 KHz raised to 20 KHz. That won’t do the heat increase of the 1000Hz:8000Hz differential, so this is not a weak link.
O_O wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 07:51
USB polling will be taken care of by the MCU which might be a LPC11U3... which has an ambient specification of -40C to 85C and a maximum junction temperature of 150C.
That’s definitely true. USB poll rate processing in a separate chip, and there’s been more than 15 years of Moore’s Law on USB processing.
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by schizobeyondpills » 29 Oct 2020, 10:07

O_O wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 07:51
schizobeyondpills wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:32
Windows kernel timer has a limit of 0.5 ms interrupt intervals.
What does that have to do with 8K polling rate?
its an indicator that windows is not engineered for such high performance devices, its not hard to see or figure out, where do you have problems with? do you need further help? RTC and HPET allow far lower interrupt intervals than 0.5ms but Windows does not implement them intentionally due to being very badly engineered outdated kernel which is not optimized to handle such high freq interrupts.

look at https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/windo ... ng.377790/

then at https://www.compuphase.com/int70.txt which is RTC clock freq, for example, windows is limited to 0.4992ms interrupt interval however any RTC clock can do 8kHz interrupt intervals, but windows doesnt allow u to do this unless you patch it (yes i did it, yes it feels amazing vs 0.5ms cripple limit)

Code: Select all

Periodic Interrupt
==================
The frequency of this interrupt is programmable from 2 to 8192 per
second. To use this type of interrupt first set RS (Rate Select)
bits in Status Register A to the required value:

  RS    Int/sec         Period
 3210      -              -
 0000   none            none
 0001    256            3.90625 ms
 0010    128            7.8125  ms
 0011   8192            122.070 Micros
 0100   4096            244.141 Micros
 0101   2048            488.281 Micros
 0110   1024            976.562 Micros
 0111    512            1.93125 ms
 1000    256            3.90625 ms
 1001    128            7.8125  ms
 1010     64            15.625  ms
 1011     32            31.25   ms
 1100     16            62.50   ms
 1101      8            125.0   ms
 1110      4            250.0   ms
 1111      2            500.0   ms
 
 
notice the 488.281 micros, which is exactly what u will get if u disable HPET and use windows API to set timer to 0.5ms, or 0.488ms =)
windows is not engineered for high performance computers operating on constant clock at 4GHz+ per core so they dont allow you to set it all the way up to 8kHz.

same goes for HPET and other sources, https://wiki.osdev.org/Timer_Interrupt_Sources#HPET they are all crippled within windows being targeted at laptop users and casual desktop.
"Rate" is the divider setting. If you select a rate of 1 or 2, the RTC will have problems and "roll over" so that it generates interrupts of .81 mS and 3.91 mS, rather than the expected interrupts of 61.0 uS or 30.5 uS. So, the fastest rate you can select is 3. This will generate interrupts of 8 kHz or 122 uS.
>Percentage is going to be lower than that I think but just like you generally wouldn't pair a top end graphics card with a low end CPU, 8K isn't for everyone and some programs may choke.

not programs but systems, big difference. only top 0.000001% of PCs will have actual stable 8000Hz (that means looking at few digits past the decimal seperator )


>No, 40C is maximum recommended ambient temperature, the temperature of the air near the sensor while absolute ambient temperature is likely 15C higher than that. USB polling will be taken care of by the MCU which might be a LPC11U3... which has an ambient specification of -40C to 85C and a maximum junction temperature of 150C.

Thats just the "recommended" spec which does not reveal real life measures of usage under closed shell on a nanosecond/ps scale graph of performance, something "working" doesnt mean its working properly, just as a human being can run but it starts to fall apart, doesnt mean its working optimally. just "working"


>Temperature is a result of power dissipation and dynamic power is proportional as voltage is constant.

yeah but u forgot the biggest two factors of power dissipation, scaling of frequency and size of both transistors/IC in nanometers, COMBINED.


>This is the system timer and operates from around 0.5ms to 15.6ms, it is not windows time.
it is literally the source of time within the whole OS.
The system’s clock interval timer is probably the most important device on a Windows machine, as evidenced by its high IRQL value (CLOCK_LEVEL) and due to the critical nature of the work it is responsible for. Without this interrupt, Windows would lose track of time, causing erroneous results in calculations of uptime and clock time—and worse, causing timers not to expire anymore and threads never to lose their quantum anymore. Windows would also not be a preemptive operating system, and unless the current running thread yielded the CPU, critical background tasks and scheduling could never occur on a given processor.
^ from Windows Internals. try again please :lol:


its very sad that so many of you are very attached to marketing buzzwords rather than verifying those claims yourself.

reality has more depth than what you can perceive, it is not a single layer of "good" or "bad". the layers are infinite in depth, and reasoning about them absolutely does NOT start at a single layer. only a blind fool would do that.

also,please, PLEASE, stop mixing up timers and clock. its a big difference, timers are events at certain periodic intervals, clock is the source of time, tyvm.

@Chief
15 years of Moore’s Law on USB processing.
Moore's Law has nothing to do with whats implemented in reality, just as Intel is selling same cores for 10 years (Ivy Bridge CORE). Sure, moore's law has atom sized transistors, but Intel bounced off 10nm into 14nm, after being there for +++++ generations :cry: :cry: :cry:

oh y, i want my other posts approved, its good quality stuff (for mouse tester thread)

O_O
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Re: USb 3/4+ Future USB 8,000Hz -to- 24,000Hz polling rate

Post by O_O » 29 Oct 2020, 21:10

howiec wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 14:10
The IMOD register/mechanism is specific to Intel's implementation AFAIK.
Also, I remembered why I can't plug in my kb into the ASMedia controller.... it's cuz it uses 2 ports which I guess I could get around if I can use some sort of 2-to-1 adapter or something.
No problem finding IMOD registers for my Asmedia USB3.1. Has one type C and one type A port and no problem running low speed USB mouse directly on Type A connector however I usually have the device disabled via BIOS setup.

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