TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

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BTRY B 529th FA BN
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 03 Apr 2021, 06:34

@Chief My USB 3.0 Host Controllers Device PCI properties say PCI-E max lanes: 16, and two of them have a MAX MSI limit of 8, while one has a MAX MSI Limit of 1. The second controller with an MSI limit of 8 is for front headers I think - none of the back I/O panel USB ports except a Generic USB 2.0 hub can be connected through the second 8 MSI limit USB 3.0 Host Controller. I'm wondering if there's a difference between plugging either a mouse or keyboard (1000Hz) through a 1 MSI limit VS. an 8 MSI limit USB 3.0 controller, and if there is which would be better on the limited MSI USB 3.0 Host Controller? I'm thinking the mouse?

EDIT: to find out the resources a USB host controller uses open up MSI Utility V3, and USB Treeview

Anonymous125698

Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Anonymous125698 » 05 Dec 2021, 13:55

So I don't understand quite what is the benefit for the end user for putting the mouse and keyboard on separate usb chips, is it less input lag for both mouse and keyboard or better accuracy for mouse, or both better accuracy and less latency? Does it make my framerate smoother? Thanks.

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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Dec 2021, 18:37

lauri1234 wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 13:55
So I don't understand quite what is the benefit for the end user for putting the mouse and keyboard on separate usb chips, is it less input lag for both mouse and keyboard or better accuracy for mouse, or both better accuracy and less latency? Does it make my framerate smoother? Thanks.
Better accuracy.

It reduces mouse jitter.

Especially if you are using poll rates ABOVE 1000Hz.

The problem is bad USB ports can make 8000Hz look worse than 500Hz.

Third party research has confirmed that 1000Hz mice is no longer enough today for today's Hz. You need really good, high quality, precise, uncongested USB ports to do a good job at 2000Hz, 4000Hz and 8000Hz poll rates.

Image

Image

If your USB port is good, that's the best you can get.

But if your USB port is bad (congestion), those red squares will move further to the right, and your jitter-free 2000Hz will look like jittery 500Hz. That's an example.

Different-Hz can beat-frequency against each other (jitter/aliasing effects), but this becomes worse, if there's also additional jitter from congestion (USB root hubs with too much on it) in the original polls too, so the best-case jitter becomes worse.

TL;DR: Always use only clean uncongested USB root hubs with the Razer Viper 8KHz!
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Plznoinputlag
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Plznoinputlag » 09 Dec 2021, 01:37

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 18:37
lauri1234 wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 13:55
So I don't understand quite what is the benefit for the end user for putting the mouse and keyboard on separate usb chips, is it less input lag for both mouse and keyboard or better accuracy for mouse, or both better accuracy and less latency? Does it make my framerate smoother? Thanks.
Better accuracy.

It reduces mouse jitter.

Especially if you are using poll rates ABOVE 1000Hz.

The problem is bad USB ports can make 8000Hz look worse than 500Hz.

Third party research has confirmed that 1000Hz mice is no longer enough today for today's Hz. You need really good, high quality, precise, uncongested USB ports to do a good job at 2000Hz, 4000Hz and 8000Hz poll rates.

Image

Image

If your USB port is good, that's the best you can get.

But if your USB port is bad (congestion), those red squares will move further to the right, and your jitter-free 2000Hz will look like jittery 500Hz. That's an example.

Different-Hz can beat-frequency against each other (jitter/aliasing effects), but this becomes worse, if there's also additional jitter from congestion (USB root hubs with too much on it) in the original polls too, so the best-case jitter becomes worse.

TL;DR: Always use only clean uncongested USB root hubs with the Razer Viper 8KHz!
hello chief my razer 8khz never exceed 5k maximum in testing what to do?

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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Dec 2021, 12:22

Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 01:37
hello chief my razer 8khz never exceed 5k maximum in testing what to do?
Run at 2KHz or 4KHz. Not all systems can reliably do 8K.

2KHz gets you 90% of the benefits of 8KHz.
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Plznoinputlag
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Plznoinputlag » 09 Dec 2021, 15:17

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 12:22
Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 01:37
hello chief my razer 8khz never exceed 5k maximum in testing what to do?
Run at 2KHz or 4KHz. Not all systems can reliably do 8K.

2KHz gets you 90% of the benefits of 8KHz.
its depends on the cpu? i have i7 9700k isnt enough?

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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Dec 2021, 19:14

Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 15:17
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 12:22
Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 01:37
hello chief my razer 8khz never exceed 5k maximum in testing what to do?
Run at 2KHz or 4KHz. Not all systems can reliably do 8K.

2KHz gets you 90% of the benefits of 8KHz.
its depends on the cpu? i have i7 9700k isnt enough?
CPU is not the only weak link.

Bad USB chips can be another problem. Motherboard USB can sometimes be bad. Make sure you don't plug too many USB devices into motherboard, unplug everything except mouse and keyboard. And plug mouse in one port, and keyboard in the furthest port far away from mouse port. Sometimes a PCIe USB card helps.

Also older games such as CS:GO are not always properly 8KHz-friendly, because the game can have math errors with mouse mathematics.

Valorant/Overwatch is very 8KHz friendly, however.

You may have to tolerate your motherboard USB chipset problem and just run at 2KHz. You will have less lag at 2KHz than 8KHz.

8KHz is good on some systems in some games. But 2Khz already gets you most of the benefits of 8KHz at current 240-390Hz refresh rates. If you want to go higher, 4KHz pretty much gets you even more, like 98% of the benefits of 8KHz. These percentages are estimated, and some can see 4Khz vs 8KHz jitter differences, but most can't. 1Khz to 2-4KHz is enough for most.

At 8KHz, the mouse lag can surge during CPU-heavy moments, adding more input latency at unexpected times, because of the extra CPU processing overhead of 8KHz, which also reduces your frame rate and increases your input lag on mere mortal systems and games that cannot fully handle the beauty of 8KHz. So 2KHz-4KHz will have less input lag on some systems during "intense graphics during intense fights". If input lag is important, remember the 1/8000sec polling can be lost when the CPU adds 1/200sec of mouse input lag because it's overloaded trying to do other things. You have to look at the WHOLE input lag chain, not just only the items. The interactions can be very nasty. Why not save the CPU lag and just run the mouse at 4KHz so the CPU can have less lag? You lose a little at the mouse, you gain more at the CPU and USB chipset.

Testing your mouse lag on an unloaded system is usually worthless. You need to mousetest while a videogame is running in the next window (at full 300fps+ framerate VSYNC OFF).

We recommend most "not a troubleshooter expert" esports players to use Razer Viper at 2KHz or 4KHz for this very reason. Because optimizing a system to have more advantages at 8KHz than 4KHz is often very difficult for most esports players. Players who does not have a Ph.D degree in troubleshooting computer problems.

8KHz is a beautiful thing when it works, but 2KHz and 4KHz is more reliable for most and gets you most of the benefits, thanks to the diminishing curve of returns (at current contemporary refresh rates).

The Razer 8KHz lets you change poll rate, try them all.

TL;DR: 8KHz can overload some computers and add more lag than 2KHz or 4KHz. TRY 2KHz or 4KHz if you have mouse-lag surges during heavy firefight moments. Yes, it's still worth buying Razer 8KHz, since no other mouse properly do 2KHz or 4KHz. Thank me later.
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Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

Thatweirdinputlag
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by Thatweirdinputlag » 09 Dec 2021, 20:35

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 19:14
Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 15:17
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 12:22
Plznoinputlag wrote:
09 Dec 2021, 01:37
hello chief my razer 8khz never exceed 5k maximum in testing what to do?
Run at 2KHz or 4KHz. Not all systems can reliably do 8K.

2KHz gets you 90% of the benefits of 8KHz.
its depends on the cpu? i have i7 9700k isnt enough?
CPU is not the only weak link.

Bad USB chips can be another problem. Motherboard USB can sometimes be bad. Make sure you don't plug too many USB devices into motherboard, unplug everything except mouse and keyboard. And plug mouse in one port, and keyboard in the furthest port far away from mouse port. Sometimes a PCIe USB card helps.

Also older games such as CS:GO are not always properly 8KHz-friendly, because the game can have math errors with mouse mathematics.

Valorant/Overwatch is very 8KHz friendly, however.

You may have to tolerate your motherboard USB chipset problem and just run at 2KHz. You will have less lag at 2KHz than 8KHz.

8KHz is good on some systems in some games. But 2Khz already gets you most of the benefits of 8KHz at current 240-390Hz refresh rates. If you want to go higher, 4KHz pretty much gets you even more, like 98% of the benefits of 8KHz. These percentages are estimated, and some can see 4Khz vs 8KHz jitter differences, but most can't. 1Khz to 2-4KHz is enough for most.

At 8KHz, the mouse lag can surge during CPU-heavy moments, adding more input latency at unexpected times, because of the extra CPU processing overhead of 8KHz, which also reduces your frame rate and increases your input lag on mere mortal systems and games that cannot fully handle the beauty of 8KHz. So 2KHz-4KHz will have less input lag on some systems during "intense graphics during intense fights". If input lag is important, remember the 1/8000sec polling can be lost when the CPU adds 1/200sec of mouse input lag because it's overloaded trying to do other things. You have to look at the WHOLE input lag chain, not just only the items. The interactions can be very nasty. Why not save the CPU lag and just run the mouse at 4KHz so the CPU can have less lag? You lose a little at the mouse, you gain more at the CPU and USB chipset.

Testing your mouse lag on an unloaded system is usually worthless. You need to mousetest while a videogame is running in the next window (at full 300fps+ framerate VSYNC OFF).

We recommend most "not a troubleshooter expert" esports players to use Razer Viper at 2KHz or 4KHz for this very reason. Because optimizing a system to have more advantages at 8KHz than 4KHz is often very difficult for most esports players. Players who does not have a Ph.D degree in troubleshooting computer problems.

8KHz is a beautiful thing when it works, but 2KHz and 4KHz is more reliable for most and gets you most of the benefits, thanks to the diminishing curve of returns (at current contemporary refresh rates).

The Razer 8KHz lets you change poll rate, try them all.

TL;DR: 8KHz can overload some computers and add more lag than 2KHz or 4KHz. TRY 2KHz or 4KHz if you have mouse-lag surges during heavy firefight moments. Yes, it's still worth buying Razer 8KHz, since no other mouse properly do 2KHz or 4KHz. Thank me later.
Interesting to see how Chipset topology will evolve in the coming years, maybe we'll see 2 dedicated USB ports for M&K on intel platforms. Funny that motherboard manufacturers don't mind shoving the latest technology "PCi gen5, DDR5, WiFi 6e, quad M.2 PCie slots, up to 8 SSD Sata drives and all that juice" into their motherboard designs and then slap the term gaming on its front with a price tag of well over what any gaming cpu might be worth nowadays specially with 690x motherboards yet when it comes to the most basic essence of what a gamer actually needs is smooth gameplay, less input lag and more responsiveness! Not more M.2 slots, or dual GB2.5 ethernet ports plus a WiFi 6e, or 16 USB ports etc etc.

What's even more depressing is opting out of these options in your motherboard will almost mean that you will be getting a board with less quality components such as VRMs, heatsinks, and several BIOS options that you won't have access to.
All i ever needed was literally 4 USB ports "at max, 3 usually", 1 ethernet port, 1 Displayport from my Graphics Card "not 6" 1 PCiex16 on the motherboard, 1 M.2 pciex4, 2 Ram slots.. Give me a motherboard that has only those options, while having the components quality of a $700 board and i'm willing to pay up to $400 for it.
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daviddave1
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by daviddave1 » 11 Dec 2021, 08:44

I just posted this in viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9421&start=20 so its kinda double. But it relevant here also i think:
Its about how I connected my Razer 8K mouse to a separate PCIE USB card.

The https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... 2d787&th=1 just arrived!! ( the one with the Fresco Logic fl100ex chipset with Satapower. I used the Fresco USB driver not the Microsoft one)

I am happy to say the 8K pollingrate works on this one.

Here are the results of mousetester 1.5. On the OLD SETUP.
(Below this post the 2 results of the NEW setup ( can only ad 3 pictures as attachments.))

Old situation: Razer Viper 8K mouse straight to the Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard on the 3.2. Gen 2 USB port and the Razer Huntsman Tournaments 1000hz keyboard on the 3.2. version Gen 1 USB port:




4000 pollingrate 1600 DPI:
4000 pollingrate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard. muis onder.png
4000 pollingrate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard. muis onder.png (59.08 KiB) Viewed 13348 times
Attachments
8000 pollin grate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard muis onderlrechts en keyboard bovenrechtgs.png
8000 pollin grate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard muis onderlrechts en keyboard bovenrechtgs.png (64.22 KiB) Viewed 13348 times
Last edited by daviddave1 on 12 Dec 2021, 18:20, edited 9 times in total.
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

daviddave1
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Re: TIP: Always put high-Hz keyboard and high-Hz mouse on SEPARATE DEDICATED USB CHIPS.

Post by daviddave1 » 11 Dec 2021, 08:46

NEW SETUP : with the Razer Viper 8K mouse on the new PCIe Fresco Logic fl100ex chipset card & the Razer Huntsman Tournaments 1000hz
keyboard straight to the Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS D4 Z690 motherboard on the 3.2. Gen 2 USB port.


4000 pollingrate 1600 DPI:
4000 pollingrate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard muisoprodekaart.png
4000 pollingrate 1600 dpi alleen muis en keyboard muisoprodekaart.png (47.41 KiB) Viewed 13346 times
8000 pollingrate 1600 DPI:
8000 pollin grate 1600 dpi alleen muis onder op rode kaart keyboard boven.png
8000 pollin grate 1600 dpi alleen muis onder op rode kaart keyboard boven.png (50.87 KiB) Viewed 13346 times


I think the new setup looks pretty good especially with the 8k Pollingrate!! Now its time to give this setup a go! If u like to drop some feedback or advice: More then welcome! Tnx all! ( and tnx Chief especially! )
| Now: ASUS PG248QP 540Hz. | Past : VG259QM with the Qisda panel/PG27AQN/XL2566K

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