Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

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slaver01
Posts: 26
Joined: 21 Sep 2020, 01:48

Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by slaver01 » 25 Jan 2021, 05:36

I came across this video this morning. do you think there is a grain of truth to reduce the input lag of peripherals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVQm-hyL28

Best regards!

thizito
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Mar 2014, 09:46

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by thizito » 25 Jan 2021, 07:40

He have zero clue about what it does. As u can see him recomending 10hex that is a low enough value that the device can malfunction like missing clicks, stop tracking.. till u replug usb.

It is buffer size, the name literally says what it is.
Im not genious. But this is old, bad and questionably.

As changes are not noticiable and yes i have good pc. 480fps240hz36ns

andrelip
Posts: 87
Joined: 21 Mar 2014, 17:50

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by andrelip » 26 Jan 2021, 00:33

The most significant inconsistency people are feeling is caused by the C-State messing things up. Windows don’t respect the Bios flag for some models. Also the PowerPlans are not fully optimised to use “C1 only”, not even the Ultimate and the Bitsum.

How to check:

You can check the amount of time in every step with cmd -> perfmon and then adding the counters for C1, c2, c3 and Idle. The C1 and Idle counters should be the same (for C1 max) or both zero (in case of real c0). Anything different is bad. The frequency graph in MouseTest is a good benchmark since it’s very sensitive to latency. Just check the variance. It should be much more precise in C0 or “C1 only” an more spread in deeper states. Variance is caused mostly by the cpu delaying the Interrupt Processing (making the counter lower than frequency) and then processing it in batches (making higher than the frequency of the mouse).

How to fix

Use Power Saver Explorer and choose one of the following:

A: Processor -> Disable Idle and chave to disable idle. This will force C0, the faster state but will generate MUCH more heat.

Disclaimer: It will not work well for systems with HT enabled. HT needs the idle thread to work efficiently and with idle disabled the Windows keep the C0 by doing an endless loop. With HT off it should be the fastest possible, but check your temps!

B: Under processor put both PROMOTE and DEMOTE state threshold to 100. It is trick because in one they use the Busy counter and in the other the Idle. It will force C1 State Max, in perfmon it should be equal to the idle graph as a idle is in C1. Probability the best, since Disable Idle They have diminished returns, and C1 is Already too powerful. It works well with HT.

After check MouseTester again. You don't need to reboot, so you can easily do A/B testing.
Last edited by andrelip on 26 Jan 2021, 10:53, edited 1 time in total.

Ragerlis
Posts: 4
Joined: 06 Sep 2020, 09:40

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by Ragerlis » 26 Jan 2021, 01:55

I remember from 2010's mousebuffersize was a problem with many error inputs etc, but after a few windows versions they just fixed and set the default to zero, so doing that you are actually increasing the buffer after all.

But im not sure and i dont have enough knowledge about it, but looking in my registry, the key doesn't even exists(latest win10 version) reforcing the default is just zero.

thizito
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Mar 2014, 09:46

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by thizito » 26 Jan 2021, 03:02

Sorry if i was too direct. But there is tons of things that can reduce or change input delay
Its very dificult to a single dword to do magic. magic no exists

Messing with OS like u just said and let me add , messing with BIOS and even hidden bios settings is like 99999% more effective and noticiable

We could make a post about Ram OC, tWR tRTP, grub settings, and people in the end will have better results.
Things that for me is way more noticiable, list:

-> Changing tWR tRTP (messing with this, to ME mess with game feeling alot)
-> Power downs in bios
-> Self refresh
-> Using PMT (gets lower performance and way smoother, depends the choice of the game.. old games are perfect)
-> Using an old operational system with way less updates and very minimalistic approach
-> Changing MSI(for the good and for the bad.. enabling can sometimes be worse, must always test this)
-> Disabling drivers i have a bunch of a list with idk 68 drivers for w10 that i just disable, most of them security or useless

few examples that comes to mind, that u could A vs B test easy

edit: Also using DisableWriteCombining and messing with Async in nvidia inspector is big changes both in performance and feeling, but atm im using the lastest nvidia drivers with default FRL, felt great.

Ferr0
Posts: 14
Joined: 26 Jan 2021, 10:40

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by Ferr0 » 26 Jan 2021, 10:47

thizito wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 03:02
Sorry if i was too direct. But there is tons of things that can reduce or change input delay
Its very dificult to a single dword to do magic. magic no exists

Messing with OS like u just said and let me add , messing with BIOS and even hidden bios settings is like 99999% more effective and noticiable

We could make a post about Ram OC, tWR tRTP, grub settings, and people in the end will have better results.
Things that for me is way more noticiable, list:

-> Changing tWR tRTP (messing with this, to ME mess with game feeling alot)
-> Power downs in bios
-> Self refresh
-> Using PMT (gets lower performance and way smoother, depends the choice of the game.. old games are perfect)
-> Using an old operational system with way less updates and very minimalistic approach
-> Changing MSI(for the good and for the bad.. enabling can sometimes be worse, must always test this)
-> Disabling drivers i have a bunch of a list with idk 68 drivers for w10 that i just disable, most of them security or useless

few examples that comes to mind, that u could A vs B test easy

edit: Also using DisableWriteCombining and messing with Async in nvidia inspector is big changes both in performance and feeling, but atm im using the lastest nvidia drivers with default FRL, felt great.
Isn't setting frame rate limiter mode to disabled the best choice for input delay?
Ragerlis wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 01:55
I remember from 2010's mousebuffersize was a problem with many error inputs etc, but after a few windows versions they just fixed and set the default to zero, so doing that you are actually increasing the buffer after all.

But im not sure and i dont have enough knowledge about it, but looking in my registry, the key doesn't even exists(latest win10 version) reforcing the default is just zero.
I've had my mouse buffer size set at 0 and I've also had it set at slightly higher values like 1, 8, and 16. There is a drastic difference between setting it to 0 and setting it to 1 or a slightly higher value. At too low a value you get things like clicks not registering but at 0 none of that happens. I think 0 just sets the buffer size to its default, which is probably really high like 100. I do think setting it to dec 16 is DECREASING the buffer size from default. I've set it to 12 before as well and had no issues with dropped clicks but the cursor movement did seem a little less smooth, however it did feel snappier.

User avatar
kurtextrem
Posts: 41
Joined: 05 Mar 2017, 03:35
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by kurtextrem » 01 Feb 2021, 04:56

andrelip wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 00:33
B: Under processor put both PROMOTE and DEMOTE state threshold to 100. It is trick because in one they use the Busy counter and in the other the Idle. It will force C1 State Max, in perfmon it should be equal to the idle graph as a idle is in C1. Probability the best, since Disable Idle They have diminished returns, and C1 is Already too powerful. It works well with HT.

After check MouseTester again. You don't need to reboot, so you can easily do A/B testing.
Can you please tell me which setting it is based on the order of the settings? I think promote is first setting next to the CPU power management (in PowerSettingsExplorer) and demote the 5th?
Or maybe give us a screenshot?
Acer XF250Q, R6 competitive player

Ferr0
Posts: 14
Joined: 26 Jan 2021, 10:40

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by Ferr0 » 01 Feb 2021, 07:16

andrelip wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 00:33
The most significant inconsistency people are feeling is caused by the C-State messing things up. Windows don’t respect the Bios flag for some models. Also the PowerPlans are not fully optimised to use “C1 only”, not even the Ultimate and the Bitsum.

How to check:

You can check the amount of time in every step with cmd -> perfmon and then adding the counters for C1, c2, c3 and Idle. The C1 and Idle counters should be the same (for C1 max) or both zero (in case of real c0). Anything different is bad. The frequency graph in MouseTest is a good benchmark since it’s very sensitive to latency. Just check the variance. It should be much more precise in C0 or “C1 only” an more spread in deeper states. Variance is caused mostly by the cpu delaying the Interrupt Processing (making the counter lower than frequency) and then processing it in batches (making higher than the frequency of the mouse).

How to fix

Use Power Saver Explorer and choose one of the following:

A: Processor -> Disable Idle and chave to disable idle. This will force C0, the faster state but will generate MUCH more heat.

Disclaimer: It will not work well for systems with HT enabled. HT needs the idle thread to work efficiently and with idle disabled the Windows keep the C0 by doing an endless loop. With HT off it should be the fastest possible, but check your temps!

B: Under processor put both PROMOTE and DEMOTE state threshold to 100. It is trick because in one they use the Busy counter and in the other the Idle. It will force C1 State Max, in perfmon it should be equal to the idle graph as a idle is in C1. Probability the best, since Disable Idle They have diminished returns, and C1 is Already too powerful. It works well with HT.

After check MouseTester again. You don't need to reboot, so you can easily do A/B testing.
Doing this does add input lag though

thizito
Posts: 52
Joined: 14 Mar 2014, 09:46

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by thizito » 01 Feb 2021, 13:49

Im dont have big knowledge , im just saying my opinion and experience
ive used FRL Disallowed and tough it was best for inputlag
some people liked FlipMetering and at recent new drivers i like default the most.

As with anything, you should test

User avatar
BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 274
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: Reduce Input Delay (Mouse & Keyboard Buffer Size)

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 02 Feb 2021, 13:41

Ferr0 wrote:
01 Feb 2021, 07:16
andrelip wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 00:33
The most significant inconsistency people are feeling is caused by the C-State messing things up. Windows don’t respect the Bios flag for some models. Also the PowerPlans are not fully optimised to use “C1 only”, not even the Ultimate and the Bitsum.

How to check:

You can check the amount of time in every step with cmd -> perfmon and then adding the counters for C1, c2, c3 and Idle. The C1 and Idle counters should be the same (for C1 max) or both zero (in case of real c0). Anything different is bad. The frequency graph in MouseTest is a good benchmark since it’s very sensitive to latency. Just check the variance. It should be much more precise in C0 or “C1 only” an more spread in deeper states. Variance is caused mostly by the cpu delaying the Interrupt Processing (making the counter lower than frequency) and then processing it in batches (making higher than the frequency of the mouse).

How to fix

Use Power Saver Explorer and choose one of the following:

A: Processor -> Disable Idle and chave to disable idle. This will force C0, the faster state but will generate MUCH more heat.

Disclaimer: It will not work well for systems with HT enabled. HT needs the idle thread to work efficiently and with idle disabled the Windows keep the C0 by doing an endless loop. With HT off it should be the fastest possible, but check your temps!

B: Under processor put both PROMOTE and DEMOTE state threshold to 100. It is trick because in one they use the Busy counter and in the other the Idle. It will force C1 State Max, in perfmon it should be equal to the idle graph as a idle is in C1. Probability the best, since Disable Idle They have diminished returns, and C1 is Already too powerful. It works well with HT.

After check MouseTester again. You don't need to reboot, so you can easily do A/B testing.
Doing this does add input lag though
What creates input lag between those two choices?

For me, memory latency increases when only using Disable idle. That's with my 5800X. However it was the opposite with my 3800X.

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