Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Everything about latency. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, network lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
empleat
Posts: 149
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by empleat » 11 Mar 2021, 12:56

greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01

With FSO there is no v-sync, vsync is only turned on when there is an overlay that's why i asked if you have tearing it's a simple test.
https://thevrsoldier.com/overriding-des ... ed-v-sync/

I Am pretty sure, that there is V-Sync. DWM can, or forces V-Sync in Windowed Borderless! FSO makes game run in Hybrid Fullscreen mode aka Windowed Borderless!!! Words in that article are misleading! Doesn't matter, if you use any overlays! While on the other hand FSE will override DWM:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GraphicsProgra ... ss_window/

DWM manages buffer of all windows together, while FSE will dedicate its own buffer for a game! Everyone was disabling DWM in Windows 7, as it cause lag. And FSE was preferred mode long time!
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
Tearing = no vsync = no added input lag.
What? How tearing = no vsync???
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
From the microsoft blog you mentioned:
To get back this performance overhead, we enhanced the DWM to recognize when a game is running in a borderless full screen window with no other applications on the screen. In this circumstance, the DWM gives control of the display and almost all the CPU/GPU power to the game. Which in turn allows equivalent performance to running a game in FSE. Fullscreen Optimizations is essentially FSE with the flexibility to go back to DWM composition in a simple manner. This gives us the best of both worlds with performance and other features that require the DWM, such as overlays. When an overlay such as the Game Bar is present, the DWM reassumes control of the display, and a slight performance overhead is incurred so that the overlay can be composited on top of the game in a safe and stable way. (To learn more about the Xbox Game bar, check out the info the Game Bar Team has information posted here.)
Yep, but that's Microsoft circle jerking talk and Borderless Fullscreen window = windowed mode without borders! Where DWM can force V-Sync. Also windowed mode is crap and has higher input lag then FSE! I tested disabling FSO in many games and everytime it reduces input lag and makes game much smoother!
axaro1 wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 06:55
I heard that FSO ON is actually better with newer builds of W10 2009.
I have 20H2 19042, but I Am not using insider and updating manually.

greenenemy
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Mar 2015, 04:45

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by greenenemy » 11 Mar 2021, 14:42

To get tearing free gameplay you need some sort of sync, to synchronize frames with monitor Hz.
So yes, tearing = no sync.
Borderless Fullscreen has no tearing(vsync on) and increased lag.
Exclusive fullscreen has tearing (no DWM vsync) no matter if FSO is ON or OFF.
FSO is like Exclusive fullscreen and only turns into Borderless Fullscreen when there is an overlay.

And you still didn't check if you're getting tearing or not ...

Unixko
Posts: 212
Joined: 04 Jul 2020, 08:28

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by Unixko » 11 Mar 2021, 14:55

empleat wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 12:56
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01

With FSO there is no v-sync, vsync is only turned on when there is an overlay that's why i asked if you have tearing it's a simple test.
https://thevrsoldier.com/overriding-des ... ed-v-sync/

I Am pretty sure, that there is V-Sync. DWM can, or forces V-Sync in Windowed Borderless! FSO makes game run in Hybrid Fullscreen mode aka Windowed Borderless!!! Words in that article are misleading! Doesn't matter, if you use any overlays! While on the other hand FSE will override DWM:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GraphicsProgra ... ss_window/

DWM manages buffer of all windows together, while FSE will dedicate its own buffer for a game! Everyone was disabling DWM in Windows 7, as it cause lag. And FSE was preferred mode long time!
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
Tearing = no vsync = no added input lag.
What? How tearing = no vsync???
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
From the microsoft blog you mentioned:
To get back this performance overhead, we enhanced the DWM to recognize when a game is running in a borderless full screen window with no other applications on the screen. In this circumstance, the DWM gives control of the display and almost all the CPU/GPU power to the game. Which in turn allows equivalent performance to running a game in FSE. Fullscreen Optimizations is essentially FSE with the flexibility to go back to DWM composition in a simple manner. This gives us the best of both worlds with performance and other features that require the DWM, such as overlays. When an overlay such as the Game Bar is present, the DWM reassumes control of the display, and a slight performance overhead is incurred so that the overlay can be composited on top of the game in a safe and stable way. (To learn more about the Xbox Game bar, check out the info the Game Bar Team has information posted here.)
Yep, but that's Microsoft circle jerking talk and Borderless Fullscreen window = windowed mode without borders! Where DWM can force V-Sync. Also windowed mode is crap and has higher input lag then FSE! I tested disabling FSO in many games and everytime it reduces input lag and makes game much smoother!
axaro1 wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 06:55
I heard that FSO ON is actually better with newer builds of W10 2009.
I have 20H2 19042, but I Am not using insider and updating manually.
god bless you and everbody with same mindset
gl in the future

empleat
Posts: 149
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by empleat » 11 Mar 2021, 16:40

Unixko wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 14:55
god bless you and everbody with same mindset
gl in the future
I was Supreme in CS GO... I guess you have no arguments left... I guess you are one of these people, which claim human eye can't see more than 24 fps :lol:
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
With FSO there is no v-sync, vsync is only turned on when there is an overlay that's why i asked if you have tearing it's a simple test.
Tearing = no vsync = no added input lag.
Ah you mean like test tearing on 60 fps with FSO on. Yeah you can do that.

But I don't care about V-Sync alone, as FSO is bad for other reasons. But I test whether or not FSO is on this way: I try to change volume in game. When FSO is disabled - nothing shows. If it is enabled - pop out window shows. I also can tell on reduced input lag! (when it is off)

V-Sync is not only problem tho. It causes stuttering and increased input lag, not only because V-Sync, but because it is Windowed mode and it uses DWM compositor, which has shared resources. FSE is much better!

BTW in order for disable FSO to work, you have to put this into your registry:

Code: Select all

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\System\GameConfigStore]
"GameDVR_DXGIHonorFSEWindowsCompatible"=dword:00000001
"GameDVR_FSEBehavior"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_FSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_HonorUserFSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000001
Works until DX11, doesn't work on DX12/Vulkan.

You can try, if you want...

And on DX12/Vulkan, you can try MPO, all you have to do to switch to borderless and see if it improves smoothness and input lag. https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers ... er-version
Oh and requires 460.09+ drivers on NVIDIA cards.
Last edited by empleat on 11 Mar 2021, 17:00, edited 5 times in total.

Unixko
Posts: 212
Joined: 04 Jul 2020, 08:28

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by Unixko » 11 Mar 2021, 16:57

empleat wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 16:40
Unixko wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 14:55
god bless you and everbody with same mindset
gl in the future
I was Supreme in CS GO... I guess you have no arguments left... I guess you are one of these people, which claim human eye can't see more than 24 fps :lol:
greenenemy wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 11:01
With FSO there is no v-sync, vsync is only turned on when there is an overlay that's why i asked if you have tearing it's a simple test.
Tearing = no vsync = no added input lag.
Ah you mean like test tearing on 60 fps with FSO on. Yeah you can do that.

But I don't care about V-Sync alone, as FSO is bad for other reasons. But I test whether or not FSO is on this way: I try to change volume in game. When FSO is disabled - nothing shows. If it is enabled - pop out window shows. I also can tell on reduced input lag!

V-Sync is not only problem tho. It causes stuttering and increased input lag, not only because V-Sync, but because it is Windowed mode and it uses DWM compositor, which has shared resources. FSE is much better!
can someone tell him FSE and you dont need any tweak for better input lag go for roach and <> his you know what <>

empleat
Posts: 149
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by empleat » 11 Mar 2021, 16:58

Unixko wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 16:57
can someone tell him FSE and you dont need any tweak for better input lag go for roach and <> his you know what <>
Do you even read, I use FSE :lol: :lol: :lol:

forii
Posts: 218
Joined: 29 Jan 2020, 18:23

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by forii » 11 Mar 2021, 18:17

So do we need to disable fullscreen optimisations for dx12 games? or only for dx11?
20h2 windows 10

empleat
Posts: 149
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by empleat » 11 Mar 2021, 18:40

forii wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 18:17
So do we need to disable fullscreen optimisations for dx12 games? or only for dx11?
20h2 windows 10
Since DX12/Vulkan: devs can choose to not implement FSE (Fullscreen Exclusive mode) into their games, for some reason :( You can find list of some of these games on internet. Or to find out: change a volume using keyboard media keys (HID service has to be on for media keys to work) and if there is a pop out window, then FSO is on and game is running in Fullscreen Hybrid mode, which is some sort of Windowed Borderless mode!

So you still can try disable FSO in every game, but there is a chance it won't work on DX12/Vulkan.


However luckily on DX12/Vulkan, if you put game to Windowed Borderless mode != Hybrib Fullscreen mode (FSO), there is a chance Windows will activate the MPO overlay, works from NVIDIA 460.09 drivers. No idea: if this works on AMD too. It works great so far. I tried it on Rainbow Six Siege and input lag and smoothness were amazing! There is a concern about tearing, but who cares nowadays with G-Sync. Since who the heck uses V-Sync? Not sure, if V-Sync would work while using MPO overlay! V-Sync triple buffering is better than double buffering BTW (classical V-Sync).

If you don't have G-Sync you can try this: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4916

1000WATT
Posts: 391
Joined: 22 Jul 2018, 05:44

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by 1000WATT » 11 Mar 2021, 19:07

empleat wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 16:40

BTW in order for disable FSO to work, you have to put this into your registry:

Code: Select all

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\System\GameConfigStore]
"GameDVR_DXGIHonorFSEWindowsCompatible"=dword:00000001
"GameDVR_FSEBehavior"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_FSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_HonorUserFSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000001
Works until DX11, doesn't work on DX12/Vulkan.

You can try, if you want...
These settings do not disable FSO, they remove game bar overlays, etc.
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

empleat
Posts: 149
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Input Lag and Mouse Movement Tweaks for Gaming v3 2020 Edition

Post by empleat » 11 Mar 2021, 19:11

1000WATT wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 19:07
empleat wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 16:40

BTW in order for disable FSO to work, you have to put this into your registry:

Code: Select all

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\System\GameConfigStore]
"GameDVR_DXGIHonorFSEWindowsCompatible"=dword:00000001
"GameDVR_FSEBehavior"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_FSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000002
"GameDVR_HonorUserFSEBehaviorMode"=dword:00000001
Works until DX11, doesn't work on DX12/Vulkan.

You can try, if you want...
These settings do not disable FSO, they remove game bar overlays, etc.
Not true, previously I disabled FSO and it didn't work. After this it works. You have to also check disable Fullscreen Optimizations in compability tab of each game, or edit AppCompatFlags in regedit!

This is for gamebar etc.

Code: Select all

REM GameDVR
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\System\GameConfigStore" /t REG_DWORD /v GameDVR_Enabled /d 0 /f

REM disable GameBar
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\GameDVR" /t REG_DWORD /v AppCaptureEnabled /d 0 /f

REM disable game recording and brodcasting
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GameDVR" /t REG_DWORD /v AllowGameDVR /d 0 /f

REG.exe ADD "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\PolicyManager\default\ApplicationManagement" /t REG_DWORD /v GameDVR_Enabled /d 0 /f

REM show XBOX notifications
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\GameBar" /t REG_DWORD /v ShowGameModeNotifications /d 0 /f
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\GameBar" /t REG_DWORD /v AutoGameModeEnabled /d 0 /f
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\GameBar" /t REG_DWORD /v ShowStartupPanel /d 0 /f
REG.exe ADD "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\GameBar" /t REG_DWORD /v UseNexusForGameBarEnabled /d 0 /f
Link to reddit about FSO: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... exclusive/

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