Some Question about USB and TIMERS

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Slender
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by Slender » 06 Apr 2021, 12:06

Hello Forum, hello Chief.
I have questions but no answers.
1) About USB.
1.Is usb 2.0 better for mice than usb 3.0?
2. xhci hand off disabled make usb 3.0 = usb 2.0?
3. If I buy a pci-e usb 2.0 extension will I get more latency than I would use the ports on the motherboard?
2) CSM better in Mousetester, but uefi feels better. placebo or is there an explanation? MBR or GPT?
3) I have experience with hpet disabled in bios. I actually get less input lag. But I want to clarify some points.
I currently have two systems. 1709 and 2009. Both systems have a timer less than 0.5ms.
With bcdedit settings like useplatformclock no, and useplatformtick yes (1709) QPC 3.51
And useplatformclock yes, and useplatformtick yes (2009) ACPI 3.58
I also used the clock yes parameter on 1709 and didn't see any noticeable difference in anything.
but there is a performance problem, if at 1709 in the single-core cpu-z test I get 530 points (on both timers) then on the 2009 assembly I get 430 points, memory latency also suffers. on the 2009 build, this is solved by resetting the timer from 0.5 to 15ms. which affects the delay. I roughly understand why 2009 loses, but at the same time I do not understand why this happens on the same timers ACPI + TSC (clock yes + tick yes). Maybe I'm confused about the timers?
What timer do I use if I turn off clock no and tick no? at 1709 this does the timer 0.50013 but which timer is it?
I do not intend to enable hpet in the BIOS because I will not be able to return to this lag again.

Slender
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by Slender » 06 Apr 2021, 12:11

My system.
I7-9700k 4.80 (-0)
GTX 1080TI
16Gb RAM 3600 cl18-20-20-40 (50ns)
ASUS TUF Z390-PLUS
SSD intel 545s

empleat
Posts: 100
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by empleat » 06 Apr 2021, 15:24

Slender wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 12:06
I have questions but no answers.
1. USB 2 is better for mouse and keyboard, USB 3 has higher latency, but modern mobos have only USB 3 drivers! Also disabling all USB 3 ports in BIOS helps, because you gonna get USB Root HUB drivers for USB 2!!!
2. Xhci handoff is only for old systems which don't have native/full support for USB 3, if I remember correctly
3. Maybe, if you had bad USB chipset (tho PCI-E cards are generally generate a lot of DPC latency!) e.g. as some AMD motherboards have https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/364 ... tel-11600k also download latencymon https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon and read all instructions how to test, don't run anything in background, leave it at least 15 minutes! Check your DPC latency for Wdf1000.sys, download MSI_util2, or 3 from 3d guru and check if you have all devices in MSI. !!! MSI is not always best, also careful if you switch on incorrect device, you will not boot!!! System backup recommended first! Everything should be fine except NVIDIA HD AUDIO controller, best is to uninstall it to be sure!!!
2) if you have UEFI install - disabling CSM should help to reduce lag. Although people said legacy boot is better than UEFI, but it is too old, new mobos won't even support that, so I decided not to bother with it
3) google timerbench to benchmarks your timers, you shouldn't force anything in bcdedit, except /set disabledynamictick yes, best is to let windows/programs to decide, what timer they will use. To delete bcdedit /deletevalue <value>
To show all current values bcdedit /enum

victor910
Posts: 25
Joined: 28 Nov 2020, 08:56

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by victor910 » 06 Apr 2021, 20:58

Slender wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 12:06
1.Is usb 2.0 better for mice than usb 3.0?
the device (mouse or keyboard) determines what will use usb2 or usb3, for change this you must change mouse firmware.
all another better or worse base on the driver implementation in the operation system.
usb3 root hub has its own driver implementation for usb2.
for example, if you remove the exhi driver(usb2) from the operation system, and will connect the mouse with USB2 firmware to xhci port ( to usb3), the mouse will still work.

Slender
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by Slender » 07 Apr 2021, 06:46

empleat wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 15:24
1. USB 2 is better for mouse and keyboard, USB 3 has higher latency, but modern mobos have only USB 3 drivers! Also disabling all USB 3 ports in BIOS helps, because you gonna get USB Root HUB drivers for USB 2!!!
I only use 1 slot on my motherboard's usb 3.0 controller, which is reserved only for the mouse, does this mean that by disabling usb 3.0 support for port 1, I will get 2.0?
empleat wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 15:24
2. Xhci handoff is only for old systems which don't have native/full support for USB 3, if I remember correctly
I have this option disabled by default on my mobo. But it radically changes the sensation if enabled. I don't understand which way
empleat wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 15:24
Maybe, if you had bad USB chipset (tho PCI-E cards are generally generate a lot of DPC latency!)
I just want to understand if it makes sense to use a usb 2.0 pci-e card on my motherboard or is it better for me to use the built-in usb 3.0 controller for my mouse. With regards to DCP delays, everything is fine for me.
empleat wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 15:24
3) google timerbench to benchmarks your timers
Into the timer. I only test my timers in cs: go, I don't care about FPS as much as the final latency. I found that ACPI + TSC (clock yes + tick yes) gives me a better experience for 2009 but I get very low fps on some csgo maps (inferno, vertigo). Regarding deletevalue, in all cases for me it equals = no.
All I want to understand is why on the same ACPI + TSC timer settings at 1709 I get 530 points, and in 2009 I get 430 points.
victor910 wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 20:58
if you remove the exhi driver(usb2) from the operation system, and will connect the mouse with USB2 firmware to xhci port ( to usb3), the mouse will still work.
I know about usb backward compatibility, the only question is the delay, if my usb 3.0 is higher than usb 2.0 I either change the mobo or buy a usb 2.0 controller

slaver01
Posts: 49
Joined: 21 Sep 2020, 01:48

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by slaver01 » 07 Apr 2021, 08:58

Slender wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 12:06
1.Is usb 2.0 better for mice than usb 3.0?
Yes for M+K
Slender wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 12:06
2. xhci hand off disabled make usb 3.0 = usb 2.0?
XHCI Mode is Disabled - The on-board USB 3.0 port function like a 2.0 port
XHCI Mode is Enabled - The on-board USB 3.0 port function like a 3.0 port

User avatar
BTRY B 529th FA BN
Posts: 297
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 13:28

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by BTRY B 529th FA BN » 07 Apr 2021, 09:23

Some USB ports on back I/O panels, if not all, are USB 2.0 but they have companion ports that are 3.0

empleat
Posts: 100
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by empleat » 08 Apr 2021, 00:00

Slender wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 06:46
I only use 1 slot on my motherboard's usb 3.0 controller, which is reserved only for the mouse, does this mean that by disabling usb 3.0 support for port 1, I will get 2.0?
USB 3 is bad for mouse, no matter, if it works in backwards compatible mode. As I said: I have e.g. if I enable even 1 - USB 3 port in bios, Root USB Hub (USB 3.0) drivers and mouse movement starts feeling crappy, even if I use mouse and keyboard in USB 2 ports and there is nothing connected into USB 3!! Connecting mouse, or keyboard to any USB 3 port makes my mouse movement total shit on 2 computers!
Slender wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 06:46
I have this option disabled by default on my mobo. But it radically changes the sensation if enabled. I don't understand which way
Didn't I say? Xhci handoff is only meant for older system with no USB 3 full support! Keep it off, you try on, if you want and test it - doesn't hurt. But ultimately you have to decide. If it doesn't feel better, keep it off.
Slender wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 06:46
I just want to understand if it makes sense to use a usb 2.0 pci-e card on my motherboard or is it better for me to use the built-in usb 3.0 controller for my mouse. With regards to DCP delays, everything is fine for me.
Not sure how you know. You can check DPC latency for Wdf1000.sys (USB 3 driver) in latencymon, don't do anything, or don't run any programs on background and keep it like 15 minutes+ Unless you have some serious issues, it is probably waste of money. Also PCI-E cards are known to generate tons of DPC latency in general, so it may be not a good idea! Since you say you have no issues, it probably doesn't matter. If you have firewire, Chief Blur Buster also said you could use USB -> Firewire adapter, no idea about that!

Also mousetester can be used for polling stability - Frequency vs Time
for dpc latency execution times - Interval vs Time
https://www.overclock.net/threads/mouse ... e.1535687/

You could also try to put keyboard into different USB chipset: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7618&start=40&sid= ... bdcedd656e
Didn't work for me, once I put keyboard into USB, mouse starts feeling terrible!
Slender wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 06:46
Into the timer. I only test my timers in cs: go, I don't care about FPS as much as the final latency. I found that ACPI + TSC (clock yes + tick yes) gives me a better experience for 2009 but I get very low fps on some csgo maps (inferno, vertigo). Regarding deletevalue, in all cases for me it equals = no.
All I want to understand is why on the same ACPI + TSC timer settings at 1709 I get 530 points, and in 2009 I get 430 points.
Because 1703 is last good version :lol: :lol: :lol: Windows is total @$%#$!

clock yes + tick yes - I have no idea what you mean in relation to ACPI + TSC

Also if you use TSC, keep your cpu frequency at 100% all the time = disable power saving features + turbo in bios and get bclk closest to 100. TSC is determined by CPU freq, so at start, if there is fluctuation, timer get messed. Invariant TSC should have something to ease this problem, but if I remember correctly, it didn't fix that on 100%. It is not bad timer. Depends on hw/sw configurations. Best is to not force any timers and let windows/programs to decide! So only thing I would recommend disable/enable HPET in bios, then test.
Slender wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 06:46
I know about usb backward compatibility, the only question is the delay, if my usb 3.0 is higher than usb 2.0 I either change the mobo or buy a usb 2.0 controller
Yep always use only USB 2 for mouse & keyboard, until something changes!!! Also top 2 USB ports are best!

Check this: https://www.overclock.net/threads/how-t ... e.1750736/

Slender
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 17:55

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by Slender » 08 Apr 2021, 04:00

empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
USB 3 is bad for mouse, no matter, if it works in backwards compatible mode.
Sorry for the intrusiveness. All I can do now is turn off the USB 3.0 ports completely, then will I get usb 2.0 or will I never get it? Unfortunately, my mobo does not have any usb 2.0.
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
Didn't I say? Xhci handoff is only meant for older system with no USB 3 full support!
as I remember ehci hand off for old systems, why there is xhci 3.0 for systems where only 2.0 I do not understand. For pci 3.0?
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
Not sure how you know. You can check DPC latency. Unless you have some serious issues, it is probably waste of money.
I am currently using REVI OS u4.0 with MSI mode and I feel great in terms of DPC latency. Does DPC latency really affect inputlag? I always thought that this delay only affects frame time jumps, fps.
BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 09:23
Some USB ports on back I/O panels, if not all, are USB 2.0 but they have companion ports that are 3.0
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
You could also try to put keyboard into different USB chipset
In the picture I showed how my usb tree looks now. I have a mouse connected to port 1 which shows port 17 as "companion?" I have a separate usb 3.0 controller for my keyboard and dac, which for some reason shows 4 usb, although physically it has only 2. So it is with the motherboard controller, why are there so many of them?
slaver01 wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 08:58
Disabled - The on-board USB 3.0 port function like a 2.0 port
I have disabled now, does it mean I have usb 2.0?
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
I have no idea what you mean in relation to ACPI + TSC
hpet bios disabled. Useplatformclock yes, useplatformtick yes.
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
Also if you use TSC, keep your cpu frequency at 100% all the time = disable power saving features + turbo in bios and get bclk closest to 100
I set disable idle powerplan and now my cpu is running at 100%, smoothness has improved. But cpu-z still shows dips for BCLK 99.95-100.02 and CPU 4797.65-4802.35. Is this ok or should it be stable at 100 and 4800?
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
Depends on hw/sw configurations. Best is to not force any timers and let windows/programs to decide! So only thing I would recommend disable/enable HPET in bios, then test.
as I wrote, for my system.
/ deletevalue useplatformclock = / set useplatformclock no. The same goes for tick.

Thank you for your patience
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empleat
Posts: 100
Joined: 28 Feb 2020, 21:06

Re: Some Question about USB and TIMERS

Post by empleat » 16 Apr 2021, 08:19

Slender wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 04:00


Sorry for the intrusiveness. All I can do now is turn off the USB 3.0 ports completely, then will I get usb 2.0 or will I never get it? Unfortunately, my mobo does not have any usb 2.0.
slaver01 wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 08:58
I have disabled now, does it mean I have usb 2.0?
Maybe no idea in this case. Highspeed is probably USB 2.0, still it is USB 3 chipset working in backwards compatibility mode https://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbtreeview_e.html
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00


as I remember ehci hand off for old systems, why there is xhci 3.0 for systems where only 2.0 I do not understand. For pci 3.0?
You said you have usb 3. I never saw XHCI on USB 2 only mobo, but I had only couple computers, so I have no idea!
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00

I am currently using REVI OS u4.0 with MSI mode and I feel great in terms of DPC latency. Does DPC latency really affect inputlag? I always thought that this delay only affects frame time jumps, fps.
REVI OS interesting, never heard of it. Not sure if to trust things like this, does it have DX12? You can't easily tell DPC latency by feel, unless you are hogged by DPC latency! Latencymon should work on that right, if it is like Windows?

It does indirectly, DPC latency will cause deadlocks and slow system responsiveness. However if you have like <250 us, it should be fine. Also it improves mouse consistency. And for 8khz you need lowest DPC latency possible! Otherwise Windows won't handle interrupts in time! Can you measure it on your system?
BTRY B 529th FA BN wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 09:23


In the picture I showed how my usb tree looks now. I have a mouse connected to port 1 which shows port 17 as "companion?" I have a separate usb 3.0 controller for my keyboard and dac, which for some reason shows 4 usb, although physically it has only 2. So it is with the motherboard controller, why are there so many of them?
Mouse is registered as 2 keyboards for macro buttons also and keyboard also 2 times for key-n-rollover!
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00


hpet bios disabled. Useplatformclock yes, useplatformtick yes.
I read: generally it is not a good idea to force timers in Windows, best is to let windows/programs to decide. If I change both of these options on 2 computers mouse turns to crap, even with hpet on/off and different timers. But it depends on a system, maybe it is better on yours you have to decide. Also disable dynamictick! It causes mouse to accelerate!
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00
I set disable idle powerplan and now my cpu is running at 100%, smoothness has improved. But cpu-z still shows dips for BCLK 99.95-100.02 and CPU 4797.65-4802.35. Is this ok or should it be stable at 100 and 4800?
There will be always dips from what I read, if it is <0.1 that should be actually pretty normal. You can try disable dynamic BCLK, or BCLK spread spectrum (if you don't have EMI issues) reduces input lag drastically, but can cause pops/clicks from time to time - nothing terrible! Also make sure it is set to 100 in BIOS, which should be by default.
empleat wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 00:00


as I wrote, for my system.
/ deletevalue useplatformclock = / set useplatformclock no. The same goes for tick.
Now I Am confused, you said you have it on. You can timerbench to benchmarks timers. But ultimately you need to decide by how it feels. Nothing should be forced in Windows, but you can try HPET on/off. And extented apic, google - x2apicpolicy

Ye np.

You can check my guide on input lag, if you want: https://www.tenforums.com/gaming/117377 ... ost1454596
Most you can gain by googling every single option in your BIOS and configuring your BIOS (disabling everything you don't need)!

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