FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

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wittycoder
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Joined: 02 Sep 2021, 14:04

FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by wittycoder » 03 Sep 2021, 13:29

First, thanks for the useful posts on this forum, I have tried lots of those ideas but I am still getting FPS time spikes and drops in-game. I'd like to apologize for the very long first post.

I am wondering what things I might have missed or what next steps others would suggest. Replace last components that aren't new (Intel SSD)? or go on the wild goose chase for EMI? or something else? I am somewhat concerned that it might be EMI/line noise since I have solar, EV chargers, servers in the house, HV power lines nearby but I tried different rooms/circuits.

Games that I have used to demonstrate the issue:
3d Mark TimeSpy - No FPS drop (haven't been able to discover why that might be)
Fortnite
MSFS 2020 - both VR and monitor
iRacing - VR
Assetto Corsa Competizione
Crashes in Solitare collection win animations (odd one my kids found)

PC specs
AMD 5950X
x570 Asrock Taichi mobo
Asus ROG Strix 3090 GPU
32gb 3600 Crucial Ballistix Ram
1000w Be Quiet Dark power 12 PSU
980 Pro m.2 500gb (OS/apps/some games)
Intel 660p 1tb m.2 (games/storage)
USB PCIe card (required for HP Reverb G2 VR)
Phantek p500a case
Samsung 49" ultrawide monitor (DisplayPort)


Video showing stutter/issue on different games:
phpBB [video]


History of what I have tried:
This issue started with a mostly different computer build, 3900x, x470 Asus Strix mobo, 3080 (tried MSI and EVGA), 16gb GSkill 3600, 850 Seasonic PSU. I had stutters and wanted to upgrade to the latest AMD chip anyway so I upgraded over time to the system with the specs listed at the beginning of the post. After the full build was completed the only old components were the m.2 drives and I reloaded windows at which point this debugging begins...

Tried moving games to different m.2 drive, MSFS on 980, other games on 660p and still have issues.
Latest Bios
Latest chipset drivers
Latest Ryzen Master - Both stock and Auto OC, same result
Latest GPU drivers
Nvidia settings:
Vsync - off
Sharpening, scaling disabled
FXAA off
Antialiasing Off
framerates off
MFAA - off
Power - prefer max performance
Refresh - highest available - tried other, same result
Shader cache on/off, same result
Threaded optimization On
Triple buff - off
VR pre-render - 1
virtual reality VR SS - off
Unplug front USB3 - Phantek p500a, same result
HPET - Disable device in windows, same result
Turn off all background apps in windows
Resizeable bar on/off in bios/GPU, same result
G-sync on/off, same result
Check PCI interrupts on GPU, not legacy polling
Desktop BG settings - paused
Desktop BG plain gray, no slideshow
USB selective suspend max performance, same result
PCIe Link power management - Off, same result
Processor power mgmt, min:100, cooling:active, max:100

Logitech Mouse polling rate 250-1000, same result
Close all BG apps (discord, logi gaming, controller software), same result

Power settings - High performance

Disable onboard wifi on x570 taichi, same result
Asrock A-Tuning changed to standard mode, same result

Unplugged everything on the same power circuit as the computer, same result

Change all PCIe in the bios to PCIe gen 3, same result

Tried again DDU uninstall/MSI afterburner/Riva clean. Re-install latest drivers, same result

Unplug all USB devices besides mouse/KB (hub, switch, headphones, etc.), same result
Plug computer into different wall outlet/circuit and on UPS, same result

Suggestions from a steamcommunity post:
Disable full-screen optimizations, same result

Disable NDU: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE \ SYSTEM \ ControlSet001 \ Services \ Ndu
Modify "Start" Value to 4 to disable it. - left it, same result

bcdedit /set useplatformclock true - same result
bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes - same result

7&8 on the list - disabled Cortana, telemetry, onedrive, same result

Back to my own debugging:
Turn off WSL (Ubuntu) background app running, kill all windows processes that don't force themselves to restart, same result

Stopped gaming services from windows services, same result

LatencyMon, indicated suitable but saw hard page faults in CompatTelRunner. Disabled, rebooted. Same result.

Moved to a different room, circuit, TV (HDMI), mouse/KB both different, same result

Unplugged VR DisplayPort connector and USB-C, same result

Powered down solar disconnect/power/inverters, same result

New power supply Seasonic Focus GX-850 to Be Quiet Dark Power 12 1000w, same result

Reloaded Windows, completed secure erase, format, re-install
Only installed mobo drivers, Nvidia, games (no internet during install of everything except Fortnite)
Same Result
With:
Vsync - off
Sharpening, scaling disabled
Antialiasing Off
framerates off
MFAA - off
Power - prefer max performance
Refresh - highest available - tried other, same result
Shader cache on/off, same result
Threaded optimization On
Triple buffer - off
VSync - off
VR pre-render - 1
virtual reality VR SS - off

Installed ferrite core filters for PC and monitor power, same result

Insteon Filterlinc on the power line, spikes still there but stutter seemed to be slightly improved, need to do more testing here. After more testing, this didn't solve the problem.

Turn off spread spectrum (ASRock Bios setting, Manual in OC, diable SS, leave BCLK as Auto), same result
Turn spread spectrum to auto, leave Manual mode in OC page, same result
Last edited by wittycoder on 03 Sep 2021, 17:36, edited 2 times in total.

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jorimt
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by jorimt » 03 Sep 2021, 13:46

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 13:29
Frametime spikes are instances where a frame takes longer than a single refresh cycle to render/display.

Even with a perfectly capable and tuned system and "flawless" electricity/no EMI interference, you'll still get them, primarily due to unavoidable I/O access during background asset streaming, as well as other unavoidable causes, such as game engines that rely on real-time shader compilation, inefficient streaming processes, etc.

So you should just keep in mind going forward that while you can possible reduce what you're experiencing, there's no way to eliminate it in all cases. Everyone experiences stutter on their system to one degree or another, period. It just depends on what severity and what causes we're talking about in your particular case. It may be you have a genuine issue, or it may be that you simply have unrealistic expectations in this respect.

That said, I, for one, have talked this subject to death in other threads, so I'll leave it to other users to continue the discussion. I just wanted to chime in and make clear you should never expect it to be 100% avoidable.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

wittycoder
Posts: 13
Joined: 02 Sep 2021, 14:04

Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by wittycoder » 03 Sep 2021, 14:55

I don't think my expectations are too high, I get that they will happen and I have seen it before. I expect that these will happen but I expect them to be occasional and rare. I have a very high-end PC and expect that I shouldn't have spikes multiple times per minute.

The video link didn't work, but over the course of half a lap in iRacing there were 2 major spikes causing missed braking points/offtrack and several other minor spikes in the course of < 1 min. During a landing in MSFS there are multiple back-to-back spikes and in Fortnite again there are multiple spikes in the first minute of the game.

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jorimt
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by jorimt » 03 Sep 2021, 15:36

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 14:55
I have a very high-end PC and expect that I shouldn't have spikes multiple times per minute.
I can't speak directly to your issue, as I haven't seen any evidence, but having a high-end PC does not exempt you from experiencing frametime spikes, sometimes even multiple times per minute. And what I can say is that occasional (even recurring) spikes under the 100ms range are typically entirely normal, and are usually not avoidable. This, of course, can depend on the game as well.

Again, one unavoidable cause of frametime spikes on PC is disk access. Beyond load times, current-gen PC games do not take advantage of SSD speeds for real-time background asset streaming, so if that's what's causing a frametime spike, the difference between a decent HDD and the fastest SSD on the market will do nothing to reduce it, since the maximum internal transfer speeds of the engine are fixed.

It's like having 1000 Mbps internet and playing a 4k HDR title with a maximum 25 Mbps streaming rate; beyond buffering advantages in-between streaming, it wouldn't matter if you have 10,000 Mbps internet speed, since the video's bitrate maxes out at 25 and thus can't take advantage of the faster connection.

As long as PC is split-architecture, where components such as the CPU, GPU, and storage devices are separate, there will be the need for transferring data between each, and such transfers are subject to bandwidth limitations. I.E. they aren't instant. This is one cause of frametime spikes, that is, again, unavoidable.

Whether those are the instances you are taking issue with in your particular case remains to be seen.
wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 14:55
The video link didn't work, but over the course of half a lap in iRacing there were 2 major spikes causing missed braking points/offtrack and several other minor spikes in the course of < 1 min. During a landing in MSFS there are multiple back-to-back spikes and in Fortnite again there are multiple spikes in the first minute of the game.
Your video link didn't work because we have manual moderation on a new user's first few posts as to avoid spam. If you PM it to me, I can edit it into your OP.

As for iRacing, I can't speak to it, because I don't play it, but regarding Fornite, we had a long thread about that where I showed several Afterburner graph examples of my system running the game to demonstrate to a user experiencing frametime spikes that the frametime performance in that game is random from match to match, at best.

If you've ever seen someone like Ninja or Shroud stream Fortnite on PC, it's a stuttery mess, full of recurring frametime spikes and halts, which in this game's case are mostly due to the netcode and I/O access, and those streamers have overkill specs.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

wittycoder
Posts: 13
Joined: 02 Sep 2021, 14:04

Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by wittycoder » 03 Sep 2021, 16:33

My old PC was X5650 Xeon with 1080TI and didn't have this anywhere near this frequency of an issue, I was able to change some basic settings as I started to troubleshoot here and it was mostly gone. My son also has hand-me-down parts from my old system (5800x with 3060TI) and also has far fewer issues in Fortnite. I don't accept that this level of stuttering is normal/acceptable on such a ridiculously overpriced/overbuilt workstation/gaming PC as I have now.
If you PM it to me, I can edit it into your OP.
Can't do that either...
The watch URL with query of the video ID is in the original post, if you can fix that URL it should work.

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jorimt
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by jorimt » 03 Sep 2021, 17:08

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 16:33
The watch URL with query of the video ID is in the original post, if you can fix that URL it should work.
Fixed.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

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nuggify
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by nuggify » 03 Sep 2021, 17:49

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 16:33
My old PC was X5650 Xeon with 1080TI and didn't have this anywhere near this frequency of an issue, I was able to change some basic settings as I started to troubleshoot here and it was mostly gone. My son also has hand-me-down parts from my old system (5800x with 3060TI) and also has far fewer issues in Fortnite. I don't accept that this level of stuttering is normal/acceptable on such a ridiculously overpriced/overbuilt workstation/gaming PC as I have now.
Because it is not normal, and tons of people have nothing like the issue you are experiencing, playing their games with no complaints. Pretending that what you are experiencing is normal and to be expected behaivor is just patently false. Something strange is going on in your situation and I know because I have the same stuff happening. And yes I 100% believe it is power related. I find it interesting that you mentioned some type of filter lessened the symptoms? That has been my experience as well but I have tested things a bit more extensively than you. If you have any ferrite clips/toroid cores around or want to experiment I would recommend trying to loop cables through them.

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jorimt
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by jorimt » 03 Sep 2021, 18:28

nuggify wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 17:49
Because it is not normal, and tons of people have nothing like the issue you are experiencing, playing their games with no complaints. Pretending that what you are experiencing is normal and to be expected behaivor is just patently false.
For the record, I was telling him what can't be fixed, after everything that can be fixed is fixed in this respect.

I now try to avoid these discussions because they never end (or when they do, not with any distinct universal conclusion), and indignity quickly rears its head if anyone thinks even for a second someone is "doubting" them, but I knew no one else would tell him what I did.

Just a "good to know" for sanity's sake at the end of all other possibilities.

Hopefully DirectStorage will finally mitigate the limitation I was specifically referencing:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/ ... ing-to-pc/
Game workloads have also evolved. Modern games load in much more data than older ones and are smarter about how they load this data. These data loading optimizations are necessary for this larger amount of data to fit into shared memory/GPU accessible memory. Instead of loading large chunks at a time with very few IO requests, games now break assets like textures down into smaller pieces, only loading in the pieces that are needed for the current scene being rendered. This approach is much more memory efficient and can deliver better looking scenes, though it does generate many more IO requests.

Unfortunately, current storage APIs were not optimized for this high number of IO requests, preventing them from scaling up to these higher NVMe bandwidths creating bottlenecks that limit what games can do. Even with super-fast PC hardware and an NVMe drive, games using the existing APIs will be unable to fully saturate the IO pipeline leaving precious bandwidth on the table.

That’s where DirectStorage for PC comes in. This API is the response to an evolving storage and IO landscape in PC gaming. DirectStorage will be supported on certain systems with NVMe drives and work to bring your gaming experience to the next level. If your system doesn’t support DirectStorage, don’t fret; games will continue to work just as well as they always have.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

1000WATT
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by 1000WATT » 04 Sep 2021, 02:30

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 13:29
jorimt wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 15:36
As for iRacing, I can't speak to it, because I don't play it, but regarding Fornite, we had a long thread about that where I showed several Afterburner graph examples of my system running the game to demonstrate to a user experiencing frametime spikes that the frametime performance in that game is random from match to match, at best.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5145&start=50#p40093
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

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jorimt
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Re: FPS drop/microstutter debugging after replacing 95% of the PC and multiple re-installs

Post by jorimt » 04 Sep 2021, 11:19

wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 13:29
I am somewhat concerned that it might be EMI/line noise since I have solar, EV chargers, servers in the house, HV power lines nearby but I tried different rooms/circuits.

Games that I have used to demonstrate the issue:
3d Mark TimeSpy - No FPS drop (haven't been able to discover why that might be)
wittycoder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 16:33
My old PC was X5650 Xeon with 1080TI and didn't have this anywhere near this frequency of an issue, I was able to change some basic settings as I started to troubleshoot here and it was mostly gone. My son also has hand-me-down parts from my old system (5800x with 3060TI) and also has far fewer issues in Fortnite.
I re-read your comments; have you tried running the same games on your new build at the exact same graphical settings, framerate, refresh rate, and resolution your older builds were running at?

I ask, because while your new build is capable of higher sustained framerates/refresh rates at higher graphical settings, due to current storage API limitations, your I/O transfer speeds haven't changed, and since those same games in that case would now be demanding more data be transferred and more complex scenes be rendered, while everything may be higher performing in-between disk access, when it comes time to load in new data, the request are now much larger than they were, causing worse/longer frametime spikes.

Another issue with EMI troubleshooting is that EMI and I/O requests cause the exact same thing, and thus can often look the same...

The tell that it's EMI, is the frametime spike presence/severity typically occurs regardless of the games, settings, and devices tried, and from what you've conveyed thus far, it's seems unlikely you have it if you don't experience it consistently in every app (i.e. 3D Mark TimeSpy, which, unlike most modern games, likely preloads it's assets before benchmarking begins, reducing realtime I/O requests), you're able to reduce and/or affect it with user-side settings, and you're not getting the same severity of the issue with older builds running on the same electricity in the same house.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

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