Internet related issue and possible fix

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nick4567
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by nick4567 » 10 Sep 2021, 18:06

stefanbk wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 17:50
nick4567 wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 14:10
Unreazz wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 10:08
I know that oldschool7 ordered a leased line in germany since he has the issue like you and overall it dinst helped. About youre first option i have no clue but its obivious internet related
There is no possible way that you arent willing to rent a generator after 2 people have tried dedicated lines unsuccessfully you wanna keep going on about this theory and literally no one has ever said they fixed their issues by doing anything internet related at all, the only thing i ask of you before you send another message on blur busters about how you think its so obviously internet related is to rent a generator and see for yourself how internet related it is
That's not true. I had the same issue like everyone else and by changing my isp now the problem is fixed.
Care to go into detail? Was it fixed wireless, fiber, a dedicated line,

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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Sep 2021, 18:54

Gumichan wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 16:41
Tbh i think that all these theories about electricity do not make any sense imo ofc, like there hasn't been a single proper proof of that and yes, I did testing in offline mode and the gameplay was perfect.
Engineers at NVIDIA / ASUS / etc disagrees with you. It's part of university training for electronics circuit design.

Scientific paper proofs:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... nics&btnG=
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... nics&btnG=
Plus dozens of links I've made in other threads (including to NVIDIA)

These are stuff you don't read on AnandTech and TomsHardware because EMI problems are SO HARD to troubleshoot, that almost no end users can do it.

Most of the time, it's the companies responsibilities to make sure computer power supplies don't fail with imperfect mains electricity. All the big companies have to add all the proper quality power supplies.

Yesterday's computers did not have error correction so they simply crashed if interference came to it. Today's computer usually just lags when inteference occurs -- whether on a network wire (DSL lag) or on a USB wire (mouse lag from interference injected into mouse cable) or on a SATA wire (disk lag from repeat-transmission of corrupt blocks) or circuit trace on PCI Express bus (lag from having to do error correction retransmit).

But unfortunately with the prevalence of cheap chinese power supplies, crappy motherboards, bad electricity companies with flickery electricity, etc -- they can conspire to create problems. So, we cannot arbitrarily hand-wave electricity. Some people are unlucky to live in locations with bad electricity (funny AC waveforms and overlapping harmonics that shows up on oscilloscope etc).

It's at the threshold of "Does not show up in our beta testing, but shows up with 100 or 1000 legitimate electricity related cases out of 10 million users" -- which is why it is so hard to troubleshoot.

All the "electricity stuff is fake" nor "240Hz is fake" does not belong on Blur Busters, so can that shit please.
We push the edges of science around here. Thanks.

Lag from bad electricity power is usually a domino effect: bad power (flickery/noisy/interference) -> error correction events occur inside a computer -> latency from internal retransmissions -> lag. Just like external latency increases (interference in a bad network/DSL wire creating retransmits), there can also be internal latency increases that were a result of a domino effect from bad electricity.

The problem is almost no average joe user can troubleshoot this. It requires a university degree to troubleshoot -- and the manufacturers have to build good power supplies, VRMs, capacitors, switching voltage regulators of all kinds, buck-boost circuits, etc. But sometimes the input electricity is so terrible, that the best power supply electronics fail to filter it all out successfully away from the circuits.

Even as some people is too eager/insistent (tinfoilhattery conspiracy stuff almost to the point of reprimand by me), I am still a defender of niche cases that are definitively confirmed to happen, with academic proofs. We stick to science and evidence around here. But sometimes the evidence are in advanced paper sites, not at TomsHardware or LinusTechTips. This is metaphorically like using social media for medical facts. If you open scientific eyes, you agree with my electricity problem assertations -- even if it's a small factor. Maybe some of you did not graduate from university electronics like NVIDIA engineers, but if you did, then you already know the EMI stuff.

Changing ISPs solve the problem more frequently than attempting to troubleshoot electricity.

It's crapshoot, we often see a situations such as:
Persons #1-10 -- tries to switch ISPs. Fails in reducing lag
Persons #11-20 -- tries to switch ISPs. Succeeds in reducing lag
Persons #21-29 -- tries to fix electricity problems. Fails in reducing lag
Persons #30 -- (one person) tries to fix electricity problems. Succeeds in reducing lag.
Etc.

There are millions of causes of lag -- e.g. lags of a specific game, lags of specific computer peripherals, lags of 1000 different ISPs worldwide, lags of different power quality in different premises, etc, etc, etc. While bad-electricity-derived lags (error correction cascades) is proven to exist, it's a VERY small percentage of latency problems worldwide. My country has relatively good electricity, and not everyone lives in the same (country /state / city / block) as you do, as lots of lag problems are often area-localized.

Just because one solved your problem or did not solve your problem, does not mean the advice is appliable to the other person because of a different location. Not everyone lives in the same house as you do. Correlation is not causation!

Readers should not thump their solution on others as an absolute mantra. It may and may not work, and a different solution may work for them, even if symptoms are near-identical. Respect. Be nice (That's the Blur Busters Forum Rule Prime Directive).

However, I agree with you, the problems in this thread is *probably* network rather than electricity. But we are Blur Busters here, we incubate crazy edge cases of temporal issues in gaming (display Hz, more frame rate, VRR, MPRT, GtG, latency, whatever). We are the people who unceremoniously shoot down doubters in the temporal domain, whether rebutting the 240Hz disbelievers, or "humans can't tell 1ms" luddites. While some users enthusaically exaggerate/overstate the size of the electricity problem, the bottom line is that Blur Busters spend hours writing stuff to stamp out this stuff. You've been warned about handwaveoffism around here. Winky wink ;)
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nick4567
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by nick4567 » 10 Sep 2021, 19:07

Gumichan wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 17:28
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 13:26
Gumichan wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 17:06
So the reason I'm creating this post is to hear from people who dealt with any of these options or people that have a clue about networking to find out If any of these options are worth the money and the hassle, I can afford both of them and it 100% will pay off money wise if it fixes the issue but obviously don't want to spend a fortune for nothing, so LMK please.
Most problems are internet related (though sometimes they are rarely power related), or computer related, or game related, or a combination of all the above.

I know people who've got major latency improvements by switching ISPs, using a gaming VPN, or getting business Internet.

Sometimes you DO need to spend money to give multiple things a try -- this is something that is not easy to troubleshoot. Multiple ISPs, multiple VPNs.

But test a low lying apple too because you have a UPS: Test lag in offline play. Do you get lag in offline play? Then, if you're uncertain if it's electricity related, try unplugging the UPS from the outlet and see if your latency disappears whenever you're unplugged. Sometimes an electrical interference is the cause, albiet more rarelyo6 rarely (bad power -> interference -> creates error correction effects -> cascades to lag).
It's surely has nothing to do with electricity, offline gameplay is totally fine. And it has nothing to do with hardware as well, as like I said in the post I mostly play on console(i have 1 ps5 and 2 ps4s + i have a pc) and the chances that 3 gaming consoles and a pc have faulty hardware are very-very low.
My ISP claims that they understand what I mean and that they worked with some comp teams providing Internet to their bootcamps/offices and that these orgs usually buy 1 of these 2 options I've listed. But I can't check it myself, only take their word, so I wanted to hear unbiased opinion from people who actually tried anything out of what I've described. I saw some people talking about getting themselves a "dedicated line" but I don't think it has anything to do with dedicated internet access with direct connection to the ISP backbone equipment via DEDICATED fibre link that was built/rented specially for them. The terminology that ISP's use can be very deceptive these days due to aggressive marketing, I might be wrong tho.
I had a dedicated internet access fiber line it was built out just for me direct access to the backbone you can ask me all about it the slas guaranteed uptimes yada yada also 200$ a month for 50mbps dedicated seems kinda cheap oldschool was paying 250$ a month for 4mbps it wasnt a fiber line it was copper but this is different than dsl, dsl is shared via dslam so a fiber line connects to a dslam and from there it is split off to many different homes his was straight to the isp pop as was mine

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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Sep 2021, 19:15

Fiber helps, but even it is not a fix-all. Some people had better esports scores on LTE than fiber, because of various factors causing problems like one specific game's automatic LPB handicapping algorithm (handicap lowest lag players to equallize playing field with high-lag players on the same server, ala the talk of Battle(non)sense lore). Just because upgrading to fiber didn't help latency for some people, does not mean it will help another person in another country. It varies quite a bit.

Latency is a hugely complex chain that is more 100x more complex than this crudely simplified diagram:

Image

The computer may indeed depend on externals latency factors as part of the game and its engine.

Latency problems cused by anything external (ISP/electricity/externals/routing/VPN/wireless reception/whatever external) are always location-specific. What happens in 1 location often doesn't happen in over 1000 other locations. So the latency of the "COMPUTER" part of this chain may be also influenced by some very bad external factor in 1 location but is not affecting someone else in a different location. Some countries have electricity that is over 1,000x worse than my country, yet computer still (mostly) work.

My point, people should not thump their location-specific solution stubbornly as if it was the guaranteed solution. Location-specific lags are HARD to troubleshoot and creates arguments (much like politics) because different problems occur in different locations. And we don't like to talk politics on Blur Busters.

If things get too heated ("demand trying this or that out") I will close this thread. So everyone, share stories and evidence.
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by nick4567 » 10 Sep 2021, 19:18

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5409&start=60 This was my original thread on this issue i was in the same boat u can read about my experience with dedicated lines in page 7 also chief renting a generator to try out and at the very least potentially guarentee u are/arent experiencing an electrical issue would be much better than spending what it costs for a line like that

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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Sep 2021, 19:27

nick4567 wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 19:18
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5409&start=60 This was my original thread on this issue i was in the same boat u can read about my experience with dedicated lines in page 7 also chief renting a generator to try out and at the very least potentially guarentee u are/arent experiencing an electrical issue would be much better than spending what it costs for a line like that
Generators are illegal in the condo tower I lived in a few years ago. Not all of us can test a generator.

Also, the original poster has a UPS. One can use that instead -- one can just test for 5 minutes playing unplugged from a UPS, for example (or borrow a slightly bigger UPS to play longer), and see how it behaves. If the latency yo-yo upwards and downwards everytime you plug/unplug. That can happen (very rarely).

Also, some of us have more money, it's easier to stay at home in a pandemic with a super-strict guard with machine gun outside your house in your country, and simply order an ISP (that is legally allowed by the government) to install a new line for your house. And hard to pick up a generator. Some countries behave very differently than yours!

Not all countries are the same as yours, buddy! Stop thumping your solution so incessantly insistently. And in Canada, generator rentals are much higher than $20. Some countries have FTTH for only $20. When I was in Mexico, the FTTH of the AirBnB I was in was only $20/month by Telmex (399 pesos per month = $20 USD for Telmex Infinitum 150 megabit). Sometimes trying out a new ISP is relatively cheap. So stop your holy war thumping!

Note: Blur Busters is headquarted in Canada. We have forum members from more than 125 countries here.
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  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by nick4567 » 15 Sep 2021, 19:30

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 19:27
nick4567 wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 19:18
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5409&start=60 This was my original thread on this issue i was in the same boat u can read about my experience with dedicated lines in page 7 also chief renting a generator to try out and at the very least potentially guarentee u are/arent experiencing an electrical issue would be much better than spending what it costs for a line like that
Generators are illegal in the condo tower I lived in a few years ago. Not all of us can test a generator.

Also, the original poster has a UPS. One can use that instead -- one can just test for 5 minutes playing unplugged from a UPS, for example (or borrow a slightly bigger UPS to play longer), and see how it behaves. If the latency yo-yo upwards and downwards everytime you plug/unplug. That can happen (very rarely).

Also, some of us have more money, it's easier to stay at home in a pandemic with a super-strict guard with machine gun outside your house in your country, and simply order an ISP (that is legally allowed by the government) to install a new line for your house. And hard to pick up a generator. Some countries behave very differently than yours!

Not all countries are the same as yours, buddy! Stop thumping your solution so incessantly insistently. And in Canada, generator rentals are much higher than $20. Some countries have FTTH for only $20. When I was in Mexico, the FTTH of the AirBnB I was in was only $20/month by Telmex (399 pesos per month = $20 USD for Telmex Infinitum 150 megabit). Sometimes trying out a new ISP is relatively cheap. So stop your holy war thumping!

Note: Blur Busters is headquarted in Canada. We have forum members from more than 125 countries here.
Oh u reopened this thread thats good i thought i had done something warranting a ban it would be a real shame if i ( a person who has been there done that, a person that is only trying to help and simply offering my experience) was banned for my “holy war thumping” so lets bring out some statistical analysis shall we i have 1 irrefutable statistically backed claim, internet has 0 nada zilch to do with this problem now for the evidence, 3 dedicated lines tried 0 fixed not even a fuckin change nothing tangible at least, 5 generators tried, 4 fixed perfectly operating hitreg, no more weird hard to describe latency the reason 1 of these didnt help was strong likely strong emf penetrating the generator. U cannot argue with the statistics some theories are not worth being entertained, especially when proven false

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Gumichan
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Gumichan » 16 Sep 2021, 08:31

nick4567 wrote:
15 Sep 2021, 19:30
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 19:27
nick4567 wrote:
10 Sep 2021, 19:18
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5409&start=60 This was my original thread on this issue i was in the same boat u can read about my experience with dedicated lines in page 7 also chief renting a generator to try out and at the very least potentially guarentee u are/arent experiencing an electrical issue would be much better than spending what it costs for a line like that
Generators are illegal in the condo tower I lived in a few years ago. Not all of us can test a generator.

Also, the original poster has a UPS. One can use that instead -- one can just test for 5 minutes playing unplugged from a UPS, for example (or borrow a slightly bigger UPS to play longer), and see how it behaves. If the latency yo-yo upwards and downwards everytime you plug/unplug. That can happen (very rarely).

Also, some of us have more money, it's easier to stay at home in a pandemic with a super-strict guard with machine gun outside your house in your country, and simply order an ISP (that is legally allowed by the government) to install a new line for your house. And hard to pick up a generator. Some countries behave very differently than yours!

Not all countries are the same as yours, buddy! Stop thumping your solution so incessantly insistently. And in Canada, generator rentals are much higher than $20. Some countries have FTTH for only $20. When I was in Mexico, the FTTH of the AirBnB I was in was only $20/month by Telmex (399 pesos per month = $20 USD for Telmex Infinitum 150 megabit). Sometimes trying out a new ISP is relatively cheap. So stop your holy war thumping!

Note: Blur Busters is headquarted in Canada. We have forum members from more than 125 countries here.
Oh u reopened this thread thats good i thought i had done something warranting a ban it would be a real shame if i ( a person who has been there done that, a person that is only trying to help and simply offering my experience) was banned for my “holy war thumping” so lets bring out some statistical analysis shall we i have 1 irrefutable statistically backed claim, internet has 0 nada zilch to do with this problem now for the evidence, 3 dedicated lines tried 0 fixed not even a fuckin change nothing tangible at least, 5 generators tried, 4 fixed perfectly operating hitreg, no more weird hard to describe latency the reason 1 of these didnt help was strong likely strong emf penetrating the generator. U cannot argue with the statistics some theories are not worth being entertained, especially when proven false
Like I said, I personally don't think that my issue has to do anything with electricity:
First of all, there must be some other "symptoms" non-gaming related, right?
Second of all, my electricity stats are perfect, grounding is very good as well + I have UPS with every gaming related device plugged in it(no difference if i play with it/without it) and the most important part is I tried to play offline, game feels way much better and smoother when the Internet is out of equation.
And even If we assume that it is power related issue after all, how do you imagine me getting myself a bloody generator when I live in the flat on the 15th floor LMAO.
Moreover, I exclude anything hardware related as well, I like i mentioned before, I mostly play on a gaming console(PS4/5), you can't change any components that can possibly improve ur gaming experience, so everyone I play against are in the same conditions hardware wise as me.
P.S. I'm not trying to say that electricity can't impact gaming or that I'm smarter than everyone here. I appreciate everyone who is trying to help BUT like I mentioned many times before, I'm certain that my issue is only Internet related and the goal of this post was not to start another debate but to hear some real user experience about 2 options that I've described(with some sort of proof preferably).

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Gumichan
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Gumichan » 16 Sep 2021, 08:37

Gumichan wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 17:06
Hello! Apologize for bad English in advance, I'm not a native speaker.
A little introduction to the issue: I play competitively(earn money from gaming) and recently I moved to another flat and since then competing online been legit a pure cancer(bad bullet reg, a feeling of huge delay even on my host(0ms ping), lack of aim-assist(I play mostly on console and with controller when i play on pc), game feels normal 1-2 days a week at best. I have a dedicated just for gaming business fibre broadband(it's not a leased line tho).Im 99.9% sure it's Internet related issue, as I have basically a perfect quality of the electricity + a DC UPS(to be immune to blackouts during tournaments)
So I've talked to my ISP, explained the situation and they've suggested 2 options:
1.Dedicated internet access(Leased fibre line to their POP) - about 1200$ for installation and 200$/month for 50 mbps
2.ISP Grade Internet access(Leased line + IP Transit via BGP) - same 1200 for the fibre line, 150$ to help me get an autonomous system, 300$/year to maintain it, about 400$ for 50 mbps(equipment lease fee included).
So the reason I'm creating this post is to hear from people who dealt with any of these options or people that have a clue about networking to find out If any of these options are worth the money and the hassle, I can afford both of them and it 100% will pay off money wise if it fixes the issue but obviously don't want to spend a fortune for nothing, so LMK please.
*UPDATE*
I'm getting myself a dedicated fibre link to the big local data center. The installation will take about 2-3 weeks, the cost will be 1400$ as a one-time payment and 500$/month for a 1gbps+ connection.

Unixko
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Re: Internet related issue and possible fix

Post by Unixko » 16 Sep 2021, 09:02

Gumichan wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 08:37
*UPDATE*
I'm getting myself a dedicated fibre link to the big local data center. The installation will take about 2-3 weeks, the cost will be 1400$ as a one-time payment and 500$/month for a 1gbps+ connection.
just warning dont do that

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