Mouse Sensor Lag (Discussion Thread)

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FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by FPSMaster » 13 Sep 2021, 09:27

slaver01 wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:43
check here too..
https://www.rtings.com/mouse/tests/control/latency
That's the click latency, not the sensor latency! It's the input lag when pressing a button, not when moving the mouse. 2 different things!

Eonds
Posts: 262
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by Eonds » 13 Sep 2021, 17:19

FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:59
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:40
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:30
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:17


I own two 8khz peripherals and yes it's very fast. Did he say his standard deviation? click to photon/movement to photon isn't accurate as other methods (way more expensive though)
BattleNonSense is testing with a acurracy of 0.1ms! He has professionell testing Equipment. He is using a super slow motion camera which captures more than 1000fps per second. Movement to photon is pretty much the best you can do. Its the latency between a mouse move and the very first action on the display. He did multiple Videos about his testing bench, and he showed it detailed in the Videos.
I'm not trying to argue but click to photon is only good for showing multi ms differences in latency. They standard deviation/fluctuation in the data is proof that not every variable is locked down. I don't really trust the methodology when it comes to sub 1ms changes. It's good enough for general testing.
True. The other guy "Reckless Yuti" did test the mice by themselves with a LED mounted to special detecting tools. You might want to check out his testing method. But he is testing the mouse together in his hands, and he dont have them mounted on a machine like BattleNonSens has.
I must say, as long as they get results in ms, I'm fine. I don't feel 0.5ms variations.


Even in the ms it's still inaccurate. & RTINGS has a flawed testing methodology. They put the razer 8k as 6ms of click latency. That's literally not accurate. I don't hate on anyone attempting to measure latency (it's pretty fucking complicated). I think there should be some peer review or something going on. Maybe the chief can chime in here and explain how they got the number 6ms of click latency for the razer 8khz. There must be something wrong with their test bench.

FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by FPSMaster » 13 Sep 2021, 18:39

Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 17:19
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:59
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:40
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:30


BattleNonSense is testing with a acurracy of 0.1ms! He has professionell testing Equipment. He is using a super slow motion camera which captures more than 1000fps per second. Movement to photon is pretty much the best you can do. Its the latency between a mouse move and the very first action on the display. He did multiple Videos about his testing bench, and he showed it detailed in the Videos.
I'm not trying to argue but click to photon is only good for showing multi ms differences in latency. They standard deviation/fluctuation in the data is proof that not every variable is locked down. I don't really trust the methodology when it comes to sub 1ms changes. It's good enough for general testing.
True. The other guy "Reckless Yuti" did test the mice by themselves with a LED mounted to special detecting tools. You might want to check out his testing method. But he is testing the mouse together in his hands, and he dont have them mounted on a machine like BattleNonSens has.
I must say, as long as they get results in ms, I'm fine. I don't feel 0.5ms variations.


Even in the ms it's still inaccurate. & RTINGS has a flawed testing methodology. They put the razer 8k as 6ms of click latency. That's literally not accurate. I don't hate on anyone attempting to measure latency (it's pretty fucking complicated). I think there should be some peer review or something going on. Maybe the chief can chime in here and explain how they got the number 6ms of click latency for the razer 8khz. There must be something wrong with their test bench.
What make you think there is something wrong?

They test their mice with very expensive slow motion cameras which can capture less then 1ms input lag. They have a mounting method for the lowest lag variations and they do many Tests to get the best results.
Which testing method would you like to see?

What I like to see is the sensor lag, not the click latency. Click lag is commun to be around 5ms. As I saw in most Tests from different people.
And I think youre mixing Sensor latency with the click latency. The click latency and sensor latency are 2 different things.

Click latency: the input lag between clicking a mouse button and seeing the first action on screen

Sensor latency: the input lag between moving the mouse and seeing the first action on screen

The polling rate is mostly bound to the sensor! Not the Buttons. The higher the polling rate, the lower the sensor latency and the higher the scan Intervalls!

Eonds
Posts: 262
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by Eonds » 13 Sep 2021, 19:07

FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 18:39
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 17:19
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:59
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:40


I'm not trying to argue but click to photon is only good for showing multi ms differences in latency. They standard deviation/fluctuation in the data is proof that not every variable is locked down. I don't really trust the methodology when it comes to sub 1ms changes. It's good enough for general testing.
True. The other guy "Reckless Yuti" did test the mice by themselves with a LED mounted to special detecting tools. You might want to check out his testing method. But he is testing the mouse together in his hands, and he dont have them mounted on a machine like BattleNonSens has.
I must say, as long as they get results in ms, I'm fine. I don't feel 0.5ms variations.


Even in the ms it's still inaccurate. & RTINGS has a flawed testing methodology. They put the razer 8k as 6ms of click latency. That's literally not accurate. I don't hate on anyone attempting to measure latency (it's pretty fucking complicated). I think there should be some peer review or something going on. Maybe the chief can chime in here and explain how they got the number 6ms of click latency for the razer 8khz. There must be something wrong with their test bench.
What make you think there is something wrong?

They test their mice with very expensive slow motion cameras which can capture less then 1ms input lag. They have a mounting method for the lowest lag variations and they do many Tests to get the best results.
Which testing method would you like to see?

What I like to see is the sensor lag, not the click latency. Click lag is commun to be around 5ms. As I saw in most Tests from different people.
And I think youre mixing Sensor latency with the click latency. The click latency and sensor latency are 2 different things.

Click latency: the input lag between clicking a mouse button and seeing the first action on screen

Sensor latency: the input lag between moving the mouse and seeing the first action on screen

The polling rate is mostly bound to the sensor! Not the Buttons. The higher the polling rate, the lower the sensor latency and the higher the scan Intervalls!


The razer 8khz click latency is below 6ms for a fact simply due to hardware inside of it. It'd take me a long time to point out everything wrong with the latency method. If latency testing is of importance to you, then you can easily figure out what i'm talking about. They measure input to output regardless. I'm aware of how mice work. The switches are optical, i don't see how the click latency is 6ms. Unless they're measuring travel distance which is just stupid in of itself.. Measuring latency via a LCD screen is also not really smart. 1000 FPS cameras are still not enough to accurately measure latency. It's "GOOD ENOUGH" is what i'm saying, but that doesn't mean you should go around saying the measurements are 100% accurate because not only is it flawed/not accurate, they never provide and or cover all variables affecting latency. I don't trust the results fully, i make my choices based of the hardware within said device nothing else. Razer 8k in theory is the lowest latency mouse right now. The only thing that'd make sense for them to say it's 6ms click latency is if they're counting pre travel.

FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by FPSMaster » 13 Sep 2021, 19:22

Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 19:07
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 18:39
Eonds wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 17:19
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:59


True. The other guy "Reckless Yuti" did test the mice by themselves with a LED mounted to special detecting tools. You might want to check out his testing method. But he is testing the mouse together in his hands, and he dont have them mounted on a machine like BattleNonSens has.
I must say, as long as they get results in ms, I'm fine. I don't feel 0.5ms variations.


Even in the ms it's still inaccurate. & RTINGS has a flawed testing methodology. They put the razer 8k as 6ms of click latency. That's literally not accurate. I don't hate on anyone attempting to measure latency (it's pretty fucking complicated). I think there should be some peer review or something going on. Maybe the chief can chime in here and explain how they got the number 6ms of click latency for the razer 8khz. There must be something wrong with their test bench.
What make you think there is something wrong?

They test their mice with very expensive slow motion cameras which can capture less then 1ms input lag. They have a mounting method for the lowest lag variations and they do many Tests to get the best results.
Which testing method would you like to see?

What I like to see is the sensor lag, not the click latency. Click lag is commun to be around 5ms. As I saw in most Tests from different people.
And I think youre mixing Sensor latency with the click latency. The click latency and sensor latency are 2 different things.

Click latency: the input lag between clicking a mouse button and seeing the first action on screen

Sensor latency: the input lag between moving the mouse and seeing the first action on screen

The polling rate is mostly bound to the sensor! Not the Buttons. The higher the polling rate, the lower the sensor latency and the higher the scan Intervalls!


The razer 8khz click latency is below 6ms for a fact simply due to hardware inside of it. It'd take me a long time to point out everything wrong with the latency method. If latency testing is of importance to you, then you can easily figure out what i'm talking about. They measure input to output regardless. I'm aware of how mice work. The switches are optical, i don't see how the click latency is 6ms. Unless they're measuring travel distance which is just stupid in of itself.. Measuring latency via a LCD screen is also not really smart. 1000 FPS cameras are still not enough to accurately measure latency. It's "GOOD ENOUGH" is what i'm saying, but that doesn't mean you should go around saying the measurements are 100% accurate because not only is it flawed/not accurate, they never provide and or cover all variables affecting latency. I don't trust the results fully, i make my choices based of the hardware within said device nothing else. Razer 8k in theory is the lowest latency mouse right now. The only thing that'd make sense for them to say it's 6ms click latency is if they're counting pre travel.
As I said in my last posts, there are variations in the testing methods. I don't think it's 100% accurate, never said that.
Of course I couldnt stand there and watch how they exactly testing this stuff, but as I read through their informations, they do the same testing method like most other people do. And it looked promising. There are literally no new ground breaking methods, which give you 100% accurate numbers.
Im fine with 0.2-0.5 variations and the super slow motion camera testing method. I just want to see the ms differences and results, I don't mind if a mouse or Monitor has 0.5ms more input lag.

If you want to see better results, you may have to wait until our electronics have evolved more.
Until then, I'm fine with the current state.

FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag (Discussion Thread)

Post by FPSMaster » 13 Sep 2021, 19:23

And if so many people got those numbers, with different testing methods, I have a good feeling. As long as I know how they measure those latencies.

lizardpeter
Posts: 208
Joined: 01 Dec 2020, 14:41

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by lizardpeter » 13 Sep 2021, 21:36

FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 06:55
When looking at those videos and tests, mice generally have 3-8ms total input lag. And in the videos we can see bigger variations in input lag from model to model and from brand to brand.
Absolutely. That is why for my monitors, mice, keyboards, etc. I always wait for independent third-party reviews from experienced reviewers who have the proper tools to test for latency differences. Optimum Tech's videos, in combination with others' videos and reviews, convinced me to order the Viper 8K and Acer Nitro 390 Hz monitor. The monitor hasn't arrived yet, but the Viper 8K is the fastest mouse out for both sensor and click latencies, and I personally noticed that it was more responsive instantly. I can't wait to try the monitor. As for keyboards, I have the Apex Pro TKL. It is very good, but I'm pretty sure the Corsair K65 RGB MINI is the fastest on the market. I purchased my Apex Pro before that one was out.
i9 9900k | RTX 2080 Ti | 32 GB 4x8GB B-Die 3600 MT/s CL16 | XV252QF 390 Hz 1080p | AW2518H 240 Hz 1080p | PG279Q 144 Hz 1440p

Razer Viper 8K | Artisan Zero Mid XL | Apex Pro TKL | 1 gbps FiOS (Fiber)

FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by FPSMaster » 14 Sep 2021, 03:09

lizardpeter wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 21:36
FPSMaster wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 06:55
When looking at those videos and tests, mice generally have 3-8ms total input lag. And in the videos we can see bigger variations in input lag from model to model and from brand to brand.
Absolutely. That is why for my monitors, mice, keyboards, etc. I always wait for independent third-party reviews from experienced reviewers who have the proper tools to test for latency differences. Optimum Tech's videos, in combination with others' videos and reviews, convinced me to order the Viper 8K and Acer Nitro 390 Hz monitor. The monitor hasn't arrived yet, but the Viper 8K is the fastest mouse out for both sensor and click latencies, and I personally noticed that it was more responsive instantly. I can't wait to try the monitor. As for keyboards, I have the Apex Pro TKL. It is very good, but I'm pretty sure the Corsair K65 RGB MINI is the fastest on the market. I purchased my Apex Pro before that one was out.
Oh, sweet! Im gonna buy myself the Razer Viper Mini too. I have the Logitech G502 Hero and I have the feeling it has alot of input lag. Im very interested to see if it's any noticeable better. And the razer is so much lighter then the logitech, thats good enough for a reason.

lizardpeter
Posts: 208
Joined: 01 Dec 2020, 14:41

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by lizardpeter » 14 Sep 2021, 03:35

FPSMaster wrote:
14 Sep 2021, 03:09
Oh, sweet! I’m gonna buy myself the Razer Viper Mini too. I have the Logitech G502 Hero, and I have a feeling it has a lot of input lag. I’m very interested to see if it's noticeably any better. And the Razer is so much lighter than the logitech, so that’s a good enough reason.
According to RTINGs, the G502 Hero has 10 ms of click latency and the Viper Mini has 6 ms. Now, I don’t think that truly measures click latency, but it would suggest that the Viper Mini is 4 ms faster than the G502 Hero. As for sensor latency, I’m not sure.
i9 9900k | RTX 2080 Ti | 32 GB 4x8GB B-Die 3600 MT/s CL16 | XV252QF 390 Hz 1080p | AW2518H 240 Hz 1080p | PG279Q 144 Hz 1440p

Razer Viper 8K | Artisan Zero Mid XL | Apex Pro TKL | 1 gbps FiOS (Fiber)

FPSMaster
Posts: 185
Joined: 04 Jun 2021, 20:39

Re: Mouse Sensor Lag!

Post by FPSMaster » 14 Sep 2021, 05:49

lizardpeter wrote:
14 Sep 2021, 03:35
FPSMaster wrote:
14 Sep 2021, 03:09
Oh, sweet! I’m gonna buy myself the Razer Viper Mini too. I have the Logitech G502 Hero, and I have a feeling it has a lot of input lag. I’m very interested to see if it's noticeably any better. And the Razer is so much lighter than the logitech, so that’s a good enough reason.
According to RTINGs, the G502 Hero has 10 ms of click latency and the Viper Mini has 6 ms. Now, I don’t think that truly measures click latency, but it would suggest that the Viper Mini is 4 ms faster than the G502 Hero. As for sensor latency, I’m not sure.
I guess the sensor lag is pretty bad too, the mouse is old and there the new logitech mice have new sensor generations.

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